just so we're all clear....

i have the utmost respect for our service men and women. they are willing to do something that i am not. i was just giving him a hard time for b*tching about something he volunteered for. :)

-Mike

Im just sayin dude. A straight 6 isnt happining. V6? most def. Look at the GTR, was straight 6 forever and now a V configuration.

But if they are calling a V10 FR Honda a NSX, you never know. :iono:

they're not calling it nsx, but went w hv something something (forgot the name). I think, they just say that it was "concept nsx", so they can use it in Super GT

It's HSV-010. Such a strange name if you ask me.

Still it should not have NSX mentioned with it at all.

The thought of a new Supra is soooo tempting. That's MY car! However given what's been happening to Toyota it could be argued that it's not going to happen for at least a decade or so. Or it's the crazy good press that they desperately need.

First of the bad stuff for Toyota the F1 gong show. Lots of money, no results. Second Nissan's GT-R. Third the LF-A can be put in there somewhere too.

It's hard to say if the LF-A was supposed to be some kind of spiritual successor to the Supra or some marketing project banking on a successful F1 season (whoops!), but for some reason it never turned my crank. I was expecting some ridiculous numbers given its near half-million dollar price. But according to Automobile magazine ('Satanic Lexus' Dec 2009) "A Nissan GT-R, which is a fraction of the price, shaves at least one-tenth off the LFA's acceleration time. A Corvette ZR1 is a few clicks faster overall." WTF!?! I guess that is pretty close to the definition of the internet's EPIC FAIL!

They need a do-over. Screw the LFA's F1 (Failure One) inspired V10. Take the ISF's V8, strengthen the bottom-end (assuming it needs it), use top quality head-gaskets (remember the 7M!) throw some pretend, easily upgraded turbos on it (say just under 7psi with a bottom end that can take 30psi), a fuel system that can handle double the stock power, dust off the old Getrag 6 speed, in a car that weighs no more than 3500lbs, and under-cut the GT-R's price by $5000. Call it a Supra. Instant success, revived legend.

The dream... sigh...

Some old articles I ran across
 

REPORT: Toyota's hybrid Supra successor on track for 2011

http://www.blogcdn.com/www.autoblog....it2007_450.jpg
http://www.blogcdn.com/www.autoblog....t-hs_naias.jpg
Toyota FT-HS Concept - Click above for a high-res image gallery

http://www.autoblog.com/2009/06/22/r...rack-for-2011/

Toyota's Hybrid Supra Successor to Launch in 2011

http://media2.worldcarfans.com/2008/...02.Mini1L2.jpg
Could boast more than 400 hp

2011 Toyota Supra to get 400-hp via 3.5L V6 mated to a hybrid system

http://www.egmcartech.com/wp-content...ncept_main.jpg

http://www.egmcartech.com/2009/06/22...hybrid-system/

Toyota exec says FT-HS could be ‘Supra of the future’

http://i255.photobucket.com/albums/h...untitledhs.jpg
http://i255.photobucket.com/albums/h...2/IMG_1192.jpg
http://i255.photobucket.com/albums/h...2/IMG_1194.jpg

http://www.motorauthority.com/news/c...of-the-future/

Toyota hints FT-HS concept could inspire next Supra

http://www.blogcdn.com/www.autoblog....01mod2_opt.jpg

http://www.autoblog.com/2008/02/28/t...re-next-supra/

Haven't I been seeing this concept for the last 10 years? This will be Toyota's failure number 2, after the LFA.

Hybrid Supra? Seriously Toyota... Go take a tour of the Texas Mile, or anywhere fast imports are drag-raced to re-learn what Supra means. King of the hill!

No one is going to buy a car to brag to GT-R owners that "My Supra gets better mileage!" This car should be raping ZR1s!!!

Anyone see the old South Park episode about the hybrid cars? People who love the smell of their own farts are designing the new Toyota sports cars! Aaaaaaaaaaaaargh!!!

? FT-HS made its debut in 2007. I don't see how the LFA is a fail. All 500 units have been spoken for.

$400000 + slower than Nissan GTR = FAIL

Its more like $375k ;)

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=A5R-oi91bd4

Also, the Supra name is dead. Toyota said it has no plans to bring back the nameplate. FT-HS if it does make it into production it will probably be called something else.

I hope it does make it into production. It looks great, does 0-60 in under 4 seconds, 400hp, rwd, good gas mileage, and pricing said to be $35k to $40k.

In that run your extra $300k gets you a 0.2sec and 3mph trap?

Should I have used the 1/3 of the LFA's price ZR1 as my example instead?

Add a few grand to the GTR and it kills the Toyota. What can you do with the carbon-shell, computer-controlled sequential transmission, rev-happy V10 for $5000? Have the dealer change the spark plugs?

It only sold out due to its low volume and speculation. Compare it to something it would be competitive with from a price and purpose standpoint like the $320k Ferrari 599 GTB Fiorano F1 and you're looking at 11.2@129.3. The Ferrari is faster, better looking (subjective, but whatever...) and cheaper than the Toyota. It's a novelty car.

Here are a couple 'slow' drag Supras (Mk3s). White car is a street car (full interior but running on slicks here) with a 7MGTE, big turbo, etc... Blue car is 2JZGTE swapped, big turbo etc... also on slicks.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2IQWIDWBhnI

The same blue car earlier on a better track:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OgE0Dhg6L8c

Both were built for less than the cost of a new GTR.

Tons of people think the LFA looks great. Toyota made a good looking car. They used their styling, anyone can make a "Ferrari design''. Nothing else looks like it.

People that brought the LFA doesn't give a crap about $$$

If you knew Toyota's goal when producing the LFA, you would know that speed was just a small factor. They wanted to show the world that they can build a super car, and I think they did a good job.

Ditto

X2

Toyota's goal was to have some marketing tie-in to their imagined victorious F1 season. The price, timing and V-10 indicate that. And speed is always a bragging right with supercars. As for its looks, like I said it's subjective, but to me the LFA looks like the offspring of a last-generation Celica and an Audi R8 with strong genes. Not to say it's ugly (like the Veyron), I just think the Fiorano is much better looking. (Can't call the catfish-looking Mk4 Supra attractive either for that matter.)

Now there was a bit of hype about how the LFA is a 'driver's' car. And how it's about feel and soul, blah, blah not just raw speed. But given how it was immediately compared against the GTR a lot of that could be viewed at pro-active criticism defense. In the same article I quoted above there were two areas where the ridiculously expensive LFA didn't meet expectations. Engine characteristics (they liked the free-revving motor but it has lousy low-end torque "That's where the real dilemma of the Lexus lies: too many revs for not quite enough grunt, 6800rpm for 354 lb-ft of torque.") and clutch/gearbox action ("would occasionally slip, respond slowly, or even refuse to act.") Both are pretty important, wouldn't you say?

Yes it's a supercar. Is it the best Toyota could do? Nope. A look into its history shows that they were unsure of what they were making from when they started NINE years ago. (Their decision to go with a V-10 was likely made when it looked like their F1 fortunes were improving and people were predicting wins. This is not how you choose an engine for your car design.) Is it the best supercar out there? Nope.

Is it what I would expect spending over a third of a million dollars and having 9 years of development? Not even close.

Now if Toyota takes this ridiculous hybrid 'Supra' path, they better hope they under-produce it too so they can sell them all. These things aren't going to be sold on their performance anyways, more so on the environmental gimmick.

If you want to get better mileage than a GTR, get a Prius. If you want world-dominating performance you should want Toyota to build a proper Supra.

Lets go over this one more time. "Supra" is dead, Toyota has no plans on bring the name back. FT-HS is the closest that we are going to get to a Supra. Honestly, I don't see anything wrong with a hybrid sport cars. Performance + good gas milage = win in my book

There are tons of hybrid sport cars.

http://www.blogcdn.com/www.autoblog....918-spyder.jpg
http://www.blogcdn.com/www.autoblog....ora414e630.jpg
http://www.blogcdn.com/www.autoblog....kage-630op.jpg
http://www.blogcdn.com/www.autoblog....hybridlive.jpg
http://www.blogcdn.com/www.autoblog....brid-630op.jpg

Cant forget about this guy

http://www.blogcdn.com/www.autoblog....a_hyb_nur2.jpg
Toyota Supra HV-R GT hybrid

There are tons of hybrid sports car CONCEPTS. And race cars built to take advantage of rules favouring new technologies. (Take away the restrictor differences in LeMans and you take away diesel's advantage.)

Part of my point is that the GTR demonstrated that people still want world-beating performance. The Supra represented this in its day. Calling whatever alphanumeric Lexus or Toyota (or God forbid Scion) the spiritual successor to the Supra and then making it some so-so, good-mileage, sporty-coupe is ridiculous. They're trying to have their cake and eat it too. Supra name is gone yet and every press release it pops up all over the place? C'mon... No they won't use it, but they're trying to harvest its heritage. It's an emperor's new clothes thing, marketing trickery.

As for a good-mileage sports car that's what this FR-S is supposed to be. But again it probably won't be all it could be (overweight and soft is my prediction). The Lotus Exige/Elise are what a good-mileage sports car means to me.

But like I said about world-beating performance. People still want it. I want it to come from Toyota. I would prefer it be named Supra. (But much like this FR-S, I could tolerate some alphanumeric nonsense if everything else were good.)

PS: What kind of Supra do you drive?

I believe two of those concepts have the geenlight. Anyways, hate it or love it. Toyota is working on a hybrid sport car. So when it comes down to it, FT-HS or MR-2 hybrid.

I have a MK4.

It may sound like I've been ripping on Toyota but I really love the company. I just expect so much more from them. It just seem that with their last major international motorsports failures (LeMans with the incredible-looking GT-One, and of course F1) that they're throwing out all of their performance history. Coming in second but being able to say your car is more environmentally friendly, as good as that may feel to some, is not the same as winning. And never will be.

The Supra's official motorsports heritage may not be on the same level as the Corolla or Celica's WRC victories but from a grassroots drag-racing it is un-paralleled. As a Mk4 owner, I'm sure there is no need for me to list the accolades of your car, in various states of tune, in many different events. The Supra is a legendary street performance machine. But that statement may have to be changed to: The Supra was a historical street performance machine.

And that sucks...

Toyota is doing good in my book. At least they are getting back in sport cars game. Why don't you hate on Honda and their CR-Z, can't forget about the ugly Acura line up. Well I'm off to bed...

Seriously, shut the fuck up.

A few grand in an evo would slaughter a GT-R, so really, you have no point whatsoever. One day when you grow up, you will learn that the measure of a great car is not only in it's 0-60 and 1/4 mile times. When you cross the barrier to below 4 seconds 0-60, a lot of money will make very little difference. There are many cars out there that will make cars 4x-6x more expensive seem slow, eg, ZR1, Viper ACR, but then there are reasons why these cars sell for $100k vs the price of say a ferrari or lamborghini... and indeed, the LFA.

& Matador's rage continues... :bellyroll:

As for me, I'm not raging that much yet. It's true that few/many grand more than you can make any car into supercar beater... but at the same time, that will void the warranty. If I was rich enough to buy GT-R, LFA, 599 GTO, Reventon and all other supercars I wouldn't void the warranty at all. I'll buy more lower price tag FR car and fully tune it instead... but that's just me.

Like Matador said, great car isn't measure only by 0~60 and 1/4. If you check Nurburgring time rec, GT-R is 7:51 while LFA is 7:24. Now, that's big difference with amazing rec. Here are few other well known supercar's rec that is slower than LFA. Note: Not tuned ones, but only stock ones
Maserati MC12 - 7:24.29
Ferrari Enzo - 7:25
Chevrolet Corvette ZR1 - 7:24
Nissan GT-R V-Spec - 7:26
Pagani Zonda F Clubsport - 7:27
Porsche Carrera GT - 7:28
Koenigsegg CCX 7:33
Mercedes SL 63 AMG Black Series - 7:36
.
.
.
.
2011 Subaru Impreza WRX STI Sedan - 7:55
.
.
.
.
My car - 20mins along with crashed everywhere... :bellyroll:

I'd buy an LFA if I were super rich. I love how it looks, I love how it sounds, I love the interior, I love the car. Is it worth the 400,000 price tag? I dunno how expensive it is to use 1 of only 2 Laser Monitored Circular Looms.. I'm sure that use time doesn't come cheap, and there are obvious benefits to using it.

Carbon fiber everything - It has brakes powerful enough to stop the earths rotation. More scoops, wings and aerodynamic doo-dads than a fighter plane. Because the LFA will rev from idle to redline in just over half a second, a conventional analog tachometer simply would not react quickly enough. Over 65% of the car is made of Carbon fiber reinforced polymer.

I dunno, I think I'd pay ever penny and smile as I tore off into the setting sun.

Couldn't agree with Matador more...

Dimman, I would quote everything you've said here and start responding... but it would take all day. Just stop.

Am I the only one who doesnt like the looks or interior of the LFA?

Hell the FT-HS only looks good from the side to be honest.

And matador, your the man

I like the LFA's interior.

I agreed I love the side view. I also like the rear.

http://i255.photobucket.com/albums/h...ta_FT-HS_1.jpg
http://i255.photobucket.com/albums/h...ta_FT-HS_3.jpg

But the front end does look a little funny, especially if you're looking straight at it. I think think it just needs to be refine a bit. Maybe a new front bumper, hood, and headlights.

http://i255.photobucket.com/albums/h...2/IMG_1200.jpg

Seriously? You grant me a STFU? Oh boy...

We're talking about a mythical future Supra here. And the LFA comparison to the GTR is completely justified. The GTR would be this mythical Supra's traditional rival. And if Toyota is putting out this expensive beast as the best they can do... Well to me it's not good enough.

If you look into the development history of the LFA there are problems. It started 9 years ago. The original project was likely going to be an ACTUAL Supra successor. It was run by Toyota as opposed to Lexus and was going to have an aluminum spaceframe and V8 powerplant (Likely what made its way into the ISF). When it changed over to Lexus some marketing guru likely decided to tie in the car to Toyota's F1 experiment. And that led to the carbon monocoque, V10 and SM transmission (as opposed to a dual clutch).

The V10 was supposed to be as light as a V8 and as compact as a V6. Excellent idea. Power is more than respectable at 552 bhp at 8200 rpm. Good number. And the talk of response etc... sounds great. But its torque peak is only 354 lb-ft at a very high 6800 rpm. Separation of only 1900 rpm from peak torque to peak power is not good. Compare it to the smaller, less powerful F430's 4.3 V8 that makes 343 lb-ft at 5250 and 490 bhp at 8500. 3250 rpm separating them. That means a much more flexible, nicer to drive engine. It's not just about peak numbers and Toyota knows this. When they redesigned the 1JZGTE they kept the power level the same but dropped the torque peak rpm from 4800 to 2400 at the same time as increasing the torque peak output by about 12 lb-ft. The only reason I can think of making the V10 so peaky is to replicate an F1 type experience. But it's not something that is actually useful to a good driving car. Every driver, even the super awesome ones, are well served by a good torque curve. 354 lb-ft at 6800 rpm doesn't say that to me.

The other major change was going to the carbon tub. Fine. Lighter, more rigid, great. But for all the cost of this thing it weighs in at 3263 lbs. Maybe 200 lbs less than the all steel unit body Mk4 Supra. This is not an exclusive fault of the LFA, as almost all cars are getting fatter as time progresses (noted exception another Nissan, 370Z vs 350Z). It just irks me that Toyota's super, all carbon, car with carbon ceramic brakes weighs within a very reasonable reach of my Mk3 Supra. I would wager I'm pretty close to it now actually (not that I'll ever hit its front/rear balance).

Then the single automated clutch sequential. I've never driven one, but heard nothing but bad things about them. This one is supposed to be the best. But almost ALL the dual clutches are better.

As for it being faster around the 'Ring. I would hope it is. It's got less weight, more power, better balance and more tire. It also costs a LOT more. Toyota is the biggest, and in my opinion best, car maker in the world. I bought a crap-load of the magazines when the LFA came out. I was disappointed. It was not the ultimate supercar I was expecting it to be. When the GTR came out it dominated everything that was anywhere close to being its competition. I was expecting the LFA to do the Lambo's, Ferraris, Carrera GTs, what the GTR did to Z06's and Porsche Turbos. It didn't.

Instead it came with talk of driving philosophy that sounded like pro-active excuse making and how they acoustically tuned the cabin with sound chambers to pick up the sound of the motor. Get over yourselves Toyota. It's not like you made the perfect driver's car. You made a $375k compromise. And there are better ones out there.

PS: One of the reasons the LFA's commanded the money was simple rarity and speculation. 500 is a very exclusive number.

On a un-ranty side note, does anyone here know that looms and weaving is where Toyota originated from?

Lamborghini Gallardo has 376 lb-tq @ 4250~4500rpm (5L, not 5.2L). Is that good enough?

Better example than mine. Closer displacement, same number of cylinders. More torque + lower rpm = better.

I remeber when they 1st showed the LF-A in 2005. Didn't like it that much; the headlights looked out of place.

http://www.autoweek.com/files/specia...s/DSCN1523.jpg
http://www.autoweek.com/files/specia...a/images/1.jpg
http://www.autoweek.com/files/specia...s/DSCN1524.jpg
http://www.autoweek.com/files/specia...s/DSCN1525.jpg
http://www.autoweek.com/files/specia...s/DSCN1526.jpg

Headlights can make or break a car's 'face'. I always see them as 'eyes'. That was my only gripe with the Mk4 Supra, it looked 'sad' or 'empty' and with the grille vaguely catfish-like. Compare it to the lights of the production LFA which looks 'angry'. I would rather my performance car look pissed off than depressed.

Another tangent: The concept's rear shows some crazy aero ideas. Full tunnels, and fans to blow out more of the rear's low pressure. Sick.

Clarkson would say it's hideous!! and he wouldn't be wrong

thank god they improved the one that actually made production



but i cant how much more they can improve the 86 concept ... its perfect on all counts

I think LF-A concept in 2007 is the most beautiful car. LFA is more race than elegance.

As craig said, If I had the time, I'd actually quote you and correct you point by point. However, i have better things to do, so I'll just say that all you make are a bunch of assumptions, and you know how that saying goes....

p.s. The LFA makes peak torque @6800 rpm, but 90% is available from 3700rpm or so. Try asking that from any other production V10, which all have similar peak torque figures.

p.p.s yes, I did grant you an STFU. Take it and use it please.

Agreed.

:thanks:

wrd.

http://i450.photobucket.com/albums/q...-lf-a---12.jpg
http://i450.photobucket.com/albums/q...-lf-a---09.jpg
http://i450.photobucket.com/albums/q...-lf-a---04.jpg
http://i450.photobucket.com/albums/q...-lf-a---03.jpg
http://i450.photobucket.com/albums/q...-lf-a---02.jpg
http://i450.photobucket.com/albums/q...-lf-a---01.jpg
http://i450.photobucket.com/albums/q...-lf-a---10.jpg
http://i450.photobucket.com/albums/q...26/05_lf-a.jpg
http://i450.photobucket.com/albums/q...26/06_lf-a.jpg
http://i450.photobucket.com/albums/q...26/01_lf-a.jpg
http://i450.photobucket.com/albums/q...26/23_lf-a.jpg

^ ehh still not feeling it.