I was late to the party.

Very... I thought I had managed to kill this senseless thread... :D

Mmmmm, sorry Luis. Gotta disagree with you here. Engine braking is really only good for saving wheel brakes on long downhills.

I disagree with the OP's notion that beginners shouldn't learn all the possible available techniques that are available to manual transmission drivers. I'm of the opinion they should learn them all, and after learning decide for themselves whether or not to apply them.

Learning to engine brake is a good item to know if your brakes for whatever reason failed. I personally don't engine brake since I prefer to use brake pads instead since I prefer to use the consumable instead, but I do know so that when needed I can still stop the car. Rev matching is a must know item. I do it for my normal drives as I prefer not to shock the drivetrain, if you drive economically you'll need to rev match as your engine speeds are very low. As Luis GT noted, its the only way to actually drive any manual car smoothly synchros or not. Double clutch, ok this one is less useful in modern cars...but again isn't it a good idea to at least know? Assuming a synchro malfunctioned, double clutching will be required. Heel and toe, this one isn't necessary for daily driving...but again should you need a quick gear change wouldn't it be nice to actually know this?

The best driver I feel is the most educated driver. The less they know, generally the worse they'll be.

That's why my brakes have gone 4K miles and 2 full track sessions and they still have life :thumbsup:

Agreed.

To clarify, not because racecar, but because every transmission is different. If you already know your transmission you won't have to learn after your clutch master puked on you and you want to get home before the ice cream melts.

Amen, brotha.

I was under the impression that ambulances and police per suit cars were all automatic. So I don't think this applies.

You keep interjecting talking about 'on the track'.

I did say that there were benefits to engine braking in certain circumstances.
If you are faster because of engine braking, it is not that you now have MORE braking power, just that you are probably in better tune with the vehicle and maintaining positive control on the connection between engine & drivetrain.

In racing, it is imperative to be in the correct gear at all times.
On the street, not so much.
Sometimes on the street it is best just to clutch in from 50 MPH and coast to the stoplight with the brakes.
That's all the OP is saying, just relax and pay attention.

And I can certainly stop faster from 100-0 in a straight line with JUST BRAKES than anyone can by heel-toe downshifting through 5 gears.
Anyone who would claim otherwise is delusional.

Have you any real world data to prove this?

While on the subject of being nice to syncros, with each downshift, especially if skipping a gear (or two!) to set up for a pass, you're putting a shit-ton of stress on that lower gear syncro and shift fork to spool up the input shaft.

I double-clutch my downshifts because I know what's going on inside there, am OCD, and it's a habit as much as picking my nose.


Oooo, better not do that in traffic either.

McLovin the racecar instructor


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I downshift through all the gears... never skip a gear... bad habit

Not on the track, dufus.


Edit: wait, damn it, I'm lost.

[quote=litemup;1935978]
I don't even know what this means... What about not on the track? I was just commenting on your main picture, and racecar like instruction. Hence the "McLovin the racecar instructor"...... Dufus...


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[quote=Corradooo;1935985]
No, right, I gotcha... duh. soooorrryyyy.

Yes it's called "it's simple physics" as mentioned by someone else here.
If I just stomp on the brakes and threshold brake all the way to a stop, that is faster stopping than you trying to downshift through each gear, unless perhaps you have a third leg to hold the brake down with. (insert large penis joke here)

I cant even believe we are still discussing it.

Why dont you please explain how engine braking plus regular brakes can make more deceleration than just brakes alone.

All of you talkin about double clutching are idiots. If your not at LEAST triple clutching your not using enough brain capacity while driving, and your never going to impress anyone. A real advanced driver is one who can use all 3 pedals, talk on the phone, roll a joint, and hold your beer while still maintaining 80mph on a highway. It's all about controlling the steering wheel with your knee


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This stupid ass post still going?

Let's whip um out and settle this the right way.

Because 2 brakes are better than 1 brake. More brakes = more stop. It's science.


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I know for a fact that ^ is science

Wait, should I NOT pick my nose?

That's gross, but as long as you fling it outside, you'll be fine...

That works unless the first brake is plenty powerful enough to lock the tire.
SO adding a second brake helps because you can lock it faster?

This is almost as bad as the ubersuber thread.

Always remember: pick it, roll it, flick it. Otherwise it will stick to your fingers.

Shouldn't this be posted in the "advanced nose picking" thread?


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We getting there

The faster the wheels stop turning the faster the car will stop because the tires won't be rolling the car forward. Everyone knows that. Nice job trying to trick me. I'm too smart for that though, I don't use a lot of brain capacity when driving so I can use more for texting at the same time.


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I have a collection going on my touch-screen.

Attachment 90172


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8 brakes or GTFO

roflcopter

Personally in an emergency braking situation I try to flip the car onto its roof and use the increased friction from the enlarged contact patch of the roof against the road.

Advanced driving.
 

^^^ this guy knows what he's talking about

Attachment 90189


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This is in response to your entire argument, not just the above quote.

Your opinions are certainly valid, assuming everyone falls into a clear cut stereotype, and yes I do clearly understand what you're trying to say. However, arguments like these are founded in absolutes and often grossly miss the point of addressing a community's general opinion. I think "sport driving" is accurate, but "advanced driving" is a little pretentious, more like "responsible safe driving" would be accurate.

Saying that rev matching, double clutching, etc are done to get from point A to point B faster on public roads, is asinine and everybody should know this. You're stating the obvious. Saying such techniques causes a safety hazard is a stretch, at best it's marginally true. It's like saying 51 is more than 50. Absolute hard truth, this cannot be argued. Well duh, of course it is, but is the difference really worth an epic argument?

The counterpoint to your entire argument is one word, "fun". People drive sports cars on public roads because they are fun, the feedback and sensations are enjoyable, engaging in using the machinery in "advanced" ways will simply engross you more in the boring act of driving your stupid passenger car from point A to point B at the boring speed limit.

I can drive my BRZ slowly and smoothly and actually have fun, simply by being engaged in the act of driving with all my silly mind-stressing high-workload techniques. They keep me engaged and focused on what is happening around me. If I were instead to focus ALL my brain power on just moving through traffic, I might as well drive an automatic Accord (or other boring everycar) with all the driver aids, automatic braking, lane assist, rear camera, automatic parallel park, driver monitoring and other electronic BS, my god will this thing wipe my ass as well? Sweeeeeet Jeeeeeesus I'd be soooooo bored... Painfully bored. I'd be WAY more likely to fire up the cell phone, play with the radio, or speed just to keep my brain from falling off the edge of the earth in a coma. To me, THIS is far more dangerous.

If a MT noob wants to learn how to double clutch, so be it. I applaud it. Of course it's not required in a modern car, but it's fun. If he can barely shift and chooses to practice DC'ing in rush hour traffic, then he's an idiot and there's nothing we can do to help him anyways. Good judgement is learned.


Fun. That's what this car is about. "Sport driving" and "responsible safe driving" techniques can certainly coexist in one person and be utilized at the same time. Not everyone who rev matches a downshift is a boy racer trying to drift every intersection. Stereotypes are a bitch aren't they?

Haven't read this whole thread, but I will just add that heel-toeing on the street makes it much more intuitive and smooth on the track.

When you're at the track diving into a corner at 100 mph, trying to slow in time to make your next turn, that's not a good time to learn heel-toe. You're better off learning and refining the technique on the street, and bringing that knowledge with you to the track.

And there's no downside on the street. Rev-matching is always good practice, whether upshifting or downshifting, and it happens to be fun.

Wait what's the problem again?

Apparently OP has to stare at his RPM gauge to rev match and it distracts him.

Also it seems that the UK has manual police cars and ambulances and they don't rev match either.

Oh and saving your brake pads and putting less stress on your drive train is bad.

This is one of the few actual sensible responses to my argument. Thank you.

It's more the brigade that insist that double clutching and rev matching are required to be driving properly that pisses me off, as it's simply bollox. Sure newbies should be given the opportunity to learn these things, but in their own time, it should not be given to them as "do this or your driving wrong".

"Advanced driving" as it's called here is surprisingly less boring than you might expect. I suppose it depends on the type of traffic you are facing. Sitting at 20mph on a crammed motorway at rush hour might leave you little opportunity to plan and anticipate as you don't have many options available. Slicing through city traffic (bearing in mind we don't have grid layouts here) is a different story. I find it quite relaxing and engaging.

What I find boring is closing myself into the car and ignoring the world outside and simply following the 2 red lights in front. This is what most people do. They play with their cell phones (even though that is illegal here), fiddle with the radio, talk with passengers and generally not pay the slightest attention.

Advanced driving is less about driving the car in a fancy way and more about spending enough time analyzing traffic that when you spot a child on one side of the road pointing at a small dog on the other that you should be checking your mirrors and getting on the brakes. Or watching the head of the person sitting waiting at the next junction, are they looking or are you looking at the back of their head, are they going to pull out without looking, should you honk at them so they look and see you? Maybe just re-positioning yourself away from the danger is all you need. etc.

And yes, there is an air of "Health and Safety committee" to the advanced driving institutes. I'm not sure I agree with all of their ways and I certainly don't drive that way all of the time. However sending newbies away with a hugely increased workload while they ARE still thinking about every gear change is asking for trouble, imho. Learning to drive a manual is a fairly high workload on it's own till you get it down, adding unrequired fancy foot work to the mix is dumb.

If you need "advanced driving" to get to work you can't drive for shit