230/190 or 250/200 would have this car on my driveway with a $1k markup.

Hey Man, if you don't mind me asking....

What do you do for a living?!

You like peaky low end turbo torque? 230/190 can only come from a turbo that makes power early (aka chokes off high rpm), or a poorly tuned 2.7 ish liter which will feel barely faster.

I have a feeling picking up about 10-20hp shouldn't be too hard on this motor given how it just dies after 7000. More than that will take some work.

Ideally, if I had a good amount of cash to throw around I'd like to see a 9000rpm redline 2.0L, with extensive weight reduction so it has about 1hp/10lb, so people driving giant displacement cars can't laugh at it lol. I figure a variable intake should be able to improve the low end performance a little bit.

I'd be willing to pay $35k for a limited trim with the power figures I listed. Another reason I'm waiting...still think an sti version with the upcoming wrx engine is on the horizon.

What gave it away? ;)

I'm really interested in what the stock components will be able to handle. Every "tuner" car from the Asian explosion more or less had stout engines that could take some serious abuse before needing rebuilds. Previous boxer experience leads me to believe that isn't the case, but we'll see...

10lbs per hp is 911 territory, that's going to take serious money.

A stock STI motor will be better than 10lb/hp in the BRZ. Not the easiest swap, but not impossible.

just out of curiosity who doesn't like low end torque? Torque really isn't important in the high rev range unless your trying to set top speed records.

Wiring nightmare. Maybe for a race car because that's going to take a standalone ECU solution. Wonder how much that affects handling/weight distribution, among other things. I recall they changed the geometry of quite a few components in moving from the EJ to the FB to the FA.

I'm trying to think of how much weight can be trimmed off without stripping the interior and AC...if 200 pounds can be cut off it will only need 250hp to get to 911 territory, aka the power peak needs to be shifted to 8400ish rather than 7000 (as you probably noticed, I prefer NA just based on principle). Dunno how much that is going to take, but it could very well need a new block. Oh and E85 might be able to hit 250hp at 8000rpm...

i was going to say with that much work you might as well just buy a 911 but then i started thinking about how even if you wring out this scion past the point of reliability it will probably be no more costly than a porsche to own

So you say the car's ability at a track isn't justification but you think daily driving is a good reason to have more power? Seriously? The power it has is far more than enough to pass someone on the highway and do double any speed limit I've ever seen in America, how could you possibly justify more power for daily driving? The fact that a very small number of them will see the track is precisely why it doesn't need more power. People like you don't need it regardless of how much you want it, and the majority of the people who do bring the car to a track do not have the driving ability to benefit from it, especially given how awful the stock tires are reputed to be. If you need to "wind it out to 6000 rpm to feel like [you're] in a sports car" then maybe this isn't the car for you, and you definitely shouldn't be driving like that on public streets anyway. There are plenty of affordable alternatives with more power if that's your thing. For better or worse though Toyota/Subaru is not designing or marketing this car to people looking for power with a 35k budget.

What other heavy components are there though? Smaller brakes or two-piece rotors with forged aluminum calipers would shave a bit. Forged wheels a bit more. Speakers perhaps, head unit/nav, trunk crap, maybe replace the rear seats with a formed carbon cover that emulates seats...I'm not seeing too many places to remove weight without really killing the interior/making the car unsafe.

Yea that's the thing, I can't think of anywhere to take weight off lol, everything is just trimming maybe a couple of pounds. Lighter driveshaft and stuff is quite a bit of money, lighter panels made of fiberglass could be cost effective, but since the trunk and hood are already aluminum there's not much weight to lose.

I'm putting my hopes on the STI model, from the factory they should be able to shave weight by installing fiberglass or aluminum quarterpanels rather than steel ones, maybe aluminum suspension components, aluminum driveshaft, aluminum brake calipers, less speakers (seriously, last time I checked most people haulers weren't coming with 8 speakers...I never use it anyways), composite roof. I could see that dropping a fair amount of weight, maybe 100 pounds. Most importantly, if they do everything I listed then the car has pretty much lost all the weight it can lose before getting really spendy.

And you could split hairs by having AGM battery with higher charging current + alternator kill switch for city/track driving (only charging when braking), and then electric water pump, which would save like 2hp or something lol.

That would be expensive. The WRX STI doesn't even have those outside of the JDM super-special models.

But the WRX STI has a more powerful engine and stuff, it's gotta offer something different...from the factory, putting on a slightly more expensive fiberglass panel here and there shouldn't cost very much. The aluminum suspension bits might be cost prohibitive though, but it would be nice if they could shed all the body panel weight possible since it's extremely expensive to do that aftermarket.

With proper tuned suspension and tires, I have a feeling that the 86's chassis will be over superior to the power it have. we will be using the power at its limits while the chassis hardly reaches its limits.

I think with another 100HP wouldn't hurt.

From reviews that statement is made about the car stock

exactly, i plan on making a 300whp with about 200lbs in weight reduction 2 mile track monster, and eventually take it to the ring to see how it fairs

the graph is on an 8 series bmw not an rx-8 :D rx-8's are fun me and a bud going drifting in the snow every year, FWD now powersliding FTL lol, its still fun, its something to do while the beater beats until the 86 is out :D

and whats wrong with that, that means i dont have to spend money on upgrading the car to handle more hp, and spend money on making more hp..

Where are you getting 200lbs in weight reduction from ripping out its various constituent parts?

if u have driven a car that's chassis overwhelm the engine. the car will feel very slow, especially on a track. right now, the 86 is only fun is because of the wimpy tires it comes with stock and anyone could do a controllable drift.

so i guess more power is definitely needed

I'm a partner in a small regional accounting firm.

I'm saying that the justification people are using that the car has enough power to extract all that it can from the chasis on grand touring tires at the track is not a good reason to not have more power.

A matter of needing more power vs wanting it is a little silly. No one needs this car. It does not fulfill anyones basic needs for transportation efficiently. Great gas mileage...no, good cargo capacity...no, efficient people mover...no. the car is a toy, a luxury to those who can afford it. Regardless of what people on this forum may think, they are not the primary target purchaser. Very few peple will own this as their only form of transportation. Its a second or third car so there is no reason to do it halfway. I don't think it is unreasonable to ask for a car with good handling and enough power to out accelerate an accord. This isn't a muscle car, never will be, and I don't want it to be. I don't need to drag race a mustang gt in this car.

Btw, more power is useful for a lot more things than reaching a higher top speed. The fact that it can double any speed limits is irrelevant. A corolla can also double most speed limits. Having more power (specifically torque) will significantly improve responsiveness in the 5-85 mph range and that could b used by everyone in their dd.

Edit: based on the number of curent miata owners in this forum (very few) I'm pretty sure I'm not alone in my opinions even within this group of enthusiasts. If people really wanted a car that had great dynamics but lacked sports car power they could have bought. Miata at any time in the last 20 years.

The car as released fills a nice spot in the market due to having 4 seats and a good entry price, but I still believe a version using the wrx motor will come and will greatly expand the appeal of this car to snag some 370z buyers and some people who may fall just short of a z4 or boxster.

Here's the thing, the majority of people can't drive any of these 300bHP cars to their limit with any sort of effectivity anyway. So why not start off with something lightweight (in this day and age 2800lbs is a blessing for a RWD 2+2 vehicle) and moderately powered? Hell half the people that THINK they're good enough to easily manipulate this car at 300bHP would probably get wrecked by someone who actually has the skill to drive the car at it's limits effectively with stock horsepower. And if the people asking for more Horsepower don't have any intention of tracking the car then why the hell do they need all that power on such a light car? You'll be well over the speed limit in just 3rd gear :iono:, at which point you're just driving like an ass :slap:.

I personally plan on running the FRS with stock tires, stock horsepower and stock alignment settings for some time just to get used to the thing before I decide to up it another 100-150HP or get grippier tires. Not to mention there is absolutely NO reason to stagger this thing under 400bHP, all you'll end up doing is adding a bunch of unnecessary understeer, but I'm sure we'll see a lot of that as well.

i dunno, the RC/RA already comes with 100lbs less than the base, 100 more lbs wouldn't be hard, considering i will be doing weight reduction in the engine, throughout the drive train, wheels, probably all aluminum panels, ohh yeah and what ever is left of the interior is going out aswell, ill have an extra set of plastics for my DD 86 :D

This idea that power is useless on the street is narrowminded. If you're focused purely on blasting to the speed limit, sure. However, I miss having gobs of torque for passing at ease. And I've driven a couple of cars that'll blow the tires off from a 60mph roll at 1/2 throttle. You can certainly use all that power every day, just not from standing stop acceleration runs. Hell, at 550whp, you're not even at WOT until second gear unless you're on drag radials anyways.

I don't think the FT needs more power for what it's designed for. However, this idea that you only need enough power to get to the speed limit and the rest is wasted is certainly untrue.

I think the way you drive in public may be different to that of others in this thread.
My current car weighs 3200lbs has 170hp and 180lb/ft and not once have I thought I needed more power.

Yeah but think about it like this. Say you're in the left lane and the speed limit is 65, now giving the person the benefit of the doubt cause I know I get annoyed when someones only doing 5 over and they're in the left lane; say you want to past said person doing 70 cause you want to be doing 85. Is there really that tremendous of a difference between having a ton of power and simply downshifting two gears and hitting a higher rev range where this car makes it's peak HP? It's literally the difference of a fraction of a second unless you were planning on cutting someone off for the sake of overtaking them.

I believe that doesn't have any sound deadening since it's the blank canvas version of the car, so that's where a bunch of the weight is coming from.

First, having a higher horsepower car has absolutely nothing to do with how big of an ass a particular driver is. I've seen as many jack asses driving in civics and camrys as I have mustangs. Age has by far a greater correlation to how stupid someone is on the road.

Now to address your question, yes there is a difference. It's the reason that most people end up buying a sports car. They want performance. A truly good sports car has both great handling and good power. If I'm driving a corolla, I expect to have to make that downshift, if I'm driving a sports car I don't. It's all about expectations. In a time when an affordable 4 door family sedan can hit 60 in ~6 seconds expectations are higher for a sports car.

For those of us that grew up with the Supra, 300ZX, RX-7, etc we want both parts of the performance equation because we know it can be done affordably. All of those cars existed for several generations before they ultimately got out of control with the price. For example, the first gen
Supra (non-turbo) had 200hp from a NA straight 6 in 1986. Your average family sedan at the time with GM's 3800 V6 was putting out 140hp.

The only "successful" sports car which could have been considered under powered (during its time not compared to now) is the miata. That is a tough act to duplicate and I personally don't think Toyota/Subaru are going to bank on being able to do it. They are following typical new model procedure. Hype the car up and release the base model and sell as many as you can. A year later introduce the convertible version and reel in all the new buyers. Finally, release a higher performance version and reel in even more customers. In the case of this car, I can see Subaru releasing an STI version and Toyota introducing a convertible version at the same time. It would further differentiate the products and for some reason I just don't see Subaru introducing a convertible in the US.

Well fine, given the example I can see your point. I typically just wait for an opening then go around jump into the next lane. The point I was making is that toyota/subaru tailored this car in a direction that would make it a great entry level RWD sports car with a dynamic feel to it. The car more than delivers on that as seen in many reviews the power can always be added later if need be.

Lets take this from a performance perspective. There aren't very many new RWD vehicles out there that offer drivers that might not be the best a chance to safely improve their skills without putting them at life threatening speeds. That was the whole reason behind putting prius tires on the car as well. Sure 100 more HP and sticky tires would have made the car a hell of a lot better but it would also raise the threshold the driver has to get to in order to make the car far/the threshold new racers would need to get to in order to start learning how to handle oversteer, heel toe brake, know what to do in an "oh shi-" situation (and IMO that's the most important), etc..
Not to mention the car would go up in price, which you have to consider how much R&D and platform development went into this car. What they're asking for it is a hell of a deal.

You know what though, according to EVERY SINGLE REVIEW on the FRS/GT86/BRZ it's looking like subaru/toyota DID succeed in making the type of successful sports car that the miata was. All we need now is to get regular joe's in the car giving the driving impressions most of us know we'll see.

Far too early to tell that. They have driven pre-production models under supervision from touota/subaru. We know they like what they have seen so far but the real reviews will come once they get their hands on a production model to do their own testing on their own courses. Also, several of the reviews have said it could use more power.

The rx-8 also had glowing reviews when it was released and we know how that turned out. No torque = no fun for a lot of cars.

The models they've driven are what we'll be seeing in the production models. If they added more power to this thing then they'll be adding $$ to the pricetag, because with 50-60 more bHP at this weight this thing will be hanging with STI's.

I'm just saying that prior to the first car being sold and prior to actually driving the car without big brother looking over their shoulder it is way too early to claim they have duplicated the magic of the miata.

I would expect a more powerful version to cost more money. don't think I ever said they should deliver more power for the same 25k. if it hangs with an sti that would be great and they could charge sti money for it. this car is different enough from a wrx that they could sell both even if they have similar straight line performance numbers.

...people.
Some folks do not like having to do anything then put their foot down and for those people they may indeed not like the FRS/BRZ.
Those are probably the same people that like flying away from people on motorway onramps and talking numbers down the pub.
If people cannot get their head around what the initial version of the FRS/BRZ provides, that is not the manufacturers fault.

First of all, a properly designed street going car does not have a lot of passing power in the highest gear. The whole point of a gearbox is so you can shift down to get more power, shift up when you don't need it. Exception would be supercars which have enough power to use more than 6 gears and so much displacement they can't be geared efficiently.

Second of all, a Camry V6 does 0-60 in 6.5 seconds, which the FRS/BRZ can possibly beat. An Accord Hybrid, the most powerful Accord, similarly does 6.5 seconds. Normal Accord V6s are 7 seconds or so. Aka, no Honda produced in the last several years besides the S2000 can outaccelerate this car, no Toyota produced recently (non-Lexus) can outaccelerate this car.

Third of all, I have seen maybe 2 Accord Hybrids ever, and while I do spot Camry V6s sometimes, on a typical day I don't see one.

A 3.5L engine is ludicrously big for a family car, it's pretty good already that this car is likely faster than said cars.

But it takes 7.6 seconds to get to 60 in a German-spec BRZ/GT/86!

Where did you see that? Everything I've seen is under 7.

Yea I just saw, I think it may have to do with an extra shift getting to 100kph rather than 60mph, which should be reached in 2nd. Most magazines are saying it should be hitting 60 in under 7 seconds. I bet having the engine revved a little and dropping the clutch would drop it a lot since the engine is extremely weak below 2500.

I don't disagree. I get it. This is a great "my first sports car." I'm just fighting the assertion that this is all the power you should ever have or can use because it's just enough. Having driven far more powerful cars daily, it's less power than I want for anything other than a daily driver. However, that's not the point of this car.

And, to be quite honest, I don't consider a 370Z on its stock tires (and a shit ton of oil coolers) "life threatening" as a tool for teaching drivers how to drive competently. Monticello uses 556hp CTS-Vs for their track instruction cars. Bondurant uses Camaro SSs and Corvettes. Spring Mountain uses Corvettes. Skip Barber uses a mix of MX5 Cup cars and Open wheel formula cars.

I think what you're trying to say is that this low power and low grip combination will allow people to hoon around on the street and wreck without killing themselves. Things happen slower so they'll learn to drive their cars. I agree with you, but I'm just saying that there are a LOT of people out there who don't fit this profile, and know how to use more than 200hp going through the rear wheels.

I'm not saying this car needs more power. I'm saying that the idea that this is all the power you could ever want, need, or can use (in any car) is plain wrong.