If that race was a little bit longer the Z would've win.

while being super cool, in the scope of professional drivers he isnt that great

What? You really think a Z is faster than an NSX?

Not to mention the Z wouldn't even last 5 more laps... brake and tires would give out.

Yep. Sub thinks the Z is the best car in the world though.

I wish that Honda would have sold the Civic R here of that generation. I probably would have bought one. There's a full BMI episode about the car.

It's a bad ass sedan, that's for sure. Probably the best Macpherson setup honda ever. You can see that the similar ITR DC5 doesn't even put up a fight against it.

It's all been downhill since then :(

So you can see into the future??? We need to be friends then!!!

Just like you think your ITR or any high revving civic is the best car in the world also??? LMFAO!! If you actually watched the video you would see what I was talking about. The NSX is the only real match for the Z in that video. The other cars were just in the way.

:slap:
Apparently you can.

Previous tests have proven brake fade and understeer will start creeping in after multiple laps. And even if it did hold up, NSX laps faster too. There's no way the Z would have caught up.

I'm not sure what the "version S" has over the base model in Japan. If it is the Anniversary edition model then it will be significantly more competitive around Tsukuba.

Previous test like what? C&D and Motortrend? And you act like the type R or the NSX doesn't have understeer issues either. I have seen a 350Z in one of the BM videos trailing a Cayman S my mere .00-seconds. I think you guys run with what you here and I'm pretty sure a Z isn't the only car that has problems after continuous usage. And for the record the NSX is my favorite car in the video. It's actually one of two(S2K) Honda's that I love.

...They don't. Nsx is a very neutral car and the narrator even mentions that the CTR had no trouble with understeer when overspeeding into a turn. And by previous tests I mean the ones BM conducted of the 350z before.

NSX has way higher standards than a cayman.

[u2b]-W6JcSzFqO8[/u2b]

BTW I love best motoring and no I won't stop referencing them :D

As BMI and others have discovered, the stock Z doesn't last all that well on track. 370s aren't even included in lightning laps anymore because their brake problems put them into a wall.

Find me a place where I said that. I do prefer high revving engines because I think they are fun to drive. I also think the ITR is very fun to drive at a reasonable prices that's also still very economical, useful (4 seat plus hatchback), etc. I also would have test driven and maybe bought the CTR Sedan if it were ever sold here. Fun to drive, useful, cheap.. those are all wins in my book. It's why I'm looking at the FRS/BRZ after all, same formula. Oh and I have this on DVD so I've seen it many times before.

The Z was catching up to the Civic, but even with all of that time it had by iteself it wasn't making up enough space to win before it's weight started causing the problems people have seen with the stock cars on track before (of course that's assuming the car used was stock, I think BMI uses all stock cars during those tests though).

And there's zero chance it would have touched the NSX, who was holding back for much of the race anyways.

Oh, and the point that a CTR was less than 1/10th of a second slower than the Z version S considering the price difference between the cars if proof enough that Honda got the CTR more right than Nissan got that Z. It's almost as fast on track, has extra seats and doors and more storage and it's significantly cheaper....

Only when it's confirmed by real life, as I've seen first hand :)

I think it's what was sold was the Track version in the US, but I'm not 100% sure.

Damnit I've been wasting time wasting the CTR BMI episode.. now I want one again lol

When did I ever say the Z was the best car in the world also? You mentioned that crap earlier.


If you also look at the best laps you would find that the Z is very close to the best lap of the NSX also. So your point is? NSX costs 90k and a 350Z costs 28k. If a Civic Type R was sold in the USA it would be as much or close to the price of a Mugen Si which is overpriced for a N/A 2.0 liter.

Fair enough :) I mention it as it compares directly to the FT, you compare the Z to a base pos RSX automatic :P

Agreed NSX cost more. The Civic R was stated to be between 25-28, 25 would have been a great price.

A 350Z doesn't compare with a FT. The FT competes with a Rx8 or a Miata, the Z is in a slightly higher league. I don't get why there is even a thread about vs the 370Z/Cayman S/Mustang V6 or 5.0? It's laughable at best.

Gonna tackle this from the theoretical side, using some real experience...

So many of the reasons why I fell in love with my Integra are the reasons why I'm after the FR-S/BRZ :wub:
- Compact
- Tight handling
- Lightweight
- Zippy engine
- Snick-snick manual tranny
- Simple engineering (i.e. not complex, like a BMW)
- Easy to mod
- Inexpensive (relatively)

Essentially, they're both like a lean cut of meat; no excess fat. Although I have never driven one personally, the ITR is a legend for good reason. But I bet the FR-S/BRZ will eventually trump it in the overall performance envelope (albeit marginally), simply because it was designed from the ground up as a performance car for those to who enjoy driving whereas the ITR was working off a pedestrian platform.

Just as Dave-ROR and others have said: RWD or FWD be damned. You can set up the car to handle however you want it to handle.

My opinion...
Stock out of the box: ITR hand's down.

No reason not to chase after both though! :happy0180:
I just wish it had a hatchback...oh the shit I've been able to haul because of that lol
http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v6...a/IMG_3173.jpg

Sorry for bring this thread back from the dead but this must be said.

Drive what you like driving.
Dont buy into what everyone else says let your emotions make the decision for you. Who cares if its your typical Honda Civic, or an ae86, or whatever. I'm not gonna lie i hated Hondas for a while but then one day i thought about it, hey these are actually pretty cool cars, who cares about the few douchebags that ruin the car? We all have our personal tastes. I like tacos and you may not like them, but im not gonna let the fact that you dont like tacos prevent me from eating them.
I think we let other people's idea of whats "cool" get to our heads a bit too much. We're all guilty of it to a certain degree. Stay true to yourselves and you'll enjoy your car a whole lot more.

It really is uncanny how similar these cars are on paper. My good friend in college had a yellow ITR. I loved that car. Too bad he moved to Cali and a few months later his car was found gutted after being out of town for a weekend. Engine gone. Wheels gone. Interior gone. I forgot what else. They should have just taken the whole car.

But it looks like the BRZ might be very close if not slightly better than the ITR. We can only hope. Look forward to Dave's thoughts once he test drives the BRZ.

Sorry for bumping this, but I want to know...

Any of you FT86 owners previously owned Integra Type R? Not GSR or similar I see pictures in this tread...

I had one for 3 years and I would really like to know how this car compares from someone who had both. Mine had exhaust header, JDM cat and Spoon catback and it showed 170whp on dyno. Would this new toyota be slower than ITR, since it has I think 120kg or so more and around 150 WHP? - correct me here if I`m wrong.

I've driven an ITR often along side the FR-S. The ITR feels faster and more exciting. That's likely because of the modifications to the ITR though. Stock for stock I can't say.. But your modified ITR will be more exciting to drive than a stock FR-S. If you modify the FR-S it should be just as fun to drive. Around a track I think it's a drivers race. I've been in a ITR that was breathing down the back of a FR-S at my local track. That FR-S had Hankook RS3s too. I'm going to hit up AutoX soon with some FR-S guys and I'll be in a USDM DC2R.

PIC Select Coilovers
Miracle X Brace
Spoon 4 Pots + SS Lines + HP+
Buddy Club Spec 2
Js Racing Intake
Mugen MF10s w/Star Spec Z1s

I'll return with feedback.

IMO, the ITR is very bland styling wise. That motor has plenty of potential, but it's very peaky and rather anemic on the low end. I would give the nod to the 86 in a stock for stock situation. Better gearing, much more low end torque, more modern conveniences (BRZ Limited). But both are respectable cars!

I had a type R too. Coming from that car is the main reason I got a BRZ. I also had an SC300 5 speed, so I was already familiar with RWD. Lightweight RWD however, is still new to me. Finding the limits on the R was much harder in the corners, but this car is capable of getting there, i think. I wish I still had the R, but it was stolen, as is per tradition.

http://i.imgur.com/mCkKP.jpg

Yay dead threads! :D

I plan on getting a Type R someday. I've always had a thing for Integras and I always will. I miss my old one. :( If I don't end up finding a Type R, I'll look for a GSR.

....

http://www.itrexpo.com/users/dave/brz/IMG_1022.jpg

The ITR is, hands down, a faster car. There's absolutely no question about it.

The two are EXTREMELY similar though (ITR is much more raw and usable (space) while the BRZ is much more modern and civilized with far superior steering feel.

I never drive my ITR anymore and it's likely for sale soon although it costs me almost nothing to keep it (collector car insurance is ~400 a year), I'd just rather have the 10-12k sitting around than a car I never enjoy anymore :(

And that's not to say the BRZ is far superior - it's not IMO. It's not at all special like the ITR either. It's more a matter of having a newer safe car for the street, a race car for the track.. and that really leaves no use left for the ITR so I'd rather let someone else enjoy it.

A basically stock ITR pulls on my BRZ on the low end.. by pulls I mean walks away from it. Only with launching with a stock BRZ hang near a stock anemic ITR.

Fixed it for you.

I could pull up stock dynos, gear ratios and how they affect wheel tq, all then numbers and jazz, but it's too much effort. There's a reason why ITR's and BRZ's pull the same quarter mile times. If ITR's have a better top end (which they do), then how does the BRZ keep pace?

Regardless, I've seen such a large variance in stock dyno numbers for the 86. My buddy pulled 143 whp... stock. While others have pulled around 160-170. Perhaps you're one of the unlucky ones.

For what it's worth, I raced an old friends ITR while I had a Celica GTS. Under the 2nd cam profile, they were pretty much dead even... Do I think the GTS has a better low end than a BRZ....nope.

Nice write-up Dave. I had an old DC2 (not Type-R). Still miss that car from time to time, especially the engine note that sounded raw and edgy. I'm surprised you thought the BRZ's steering feel was much better though. I didn't get that impression when I drove the FR-S at the first-drive event, but I guess I'll have to wait until mine comes in.

Didn't notice this for the first post. I had to reply.

B18C5 stock dyno:
http://www.carbide-red.com/car/stock_b18c5_dyno.gif

86 stock dyno:
http://www.tune86.com/sites/default/...n-frs-dyno.jpg

Explain to me how 2200 RPM of torque above 110 ft-lbs (300 rpm above 120) is considered to be more usable power than 4750 RPM's of torque above 120 ft-lbs and 3000 of that around 140 ft-lbs given similar weight that it needs to haul....

I understand you probably love the ITR. It's a fantastic car, but let's be realistic here. 90% of the time I'm not "using" 6000-8000 RPM...The ITR is 10 years old, has a great motor, TONS of aftermarket, and a large red target on it. Given your signature, I'd assume you have a large bias towards them. Sorry if my bland comment offended, but that's my opinion.

You have no idea how jealous I am of that picture... :(

Oh, the ITR... someday.. :burnrubber:

I haven't run the numbers so you might be right, but you'd need to factor in curb weight (ITR is 2639, BRZ is 2776) and gearing to make an accurate comparison.

Launch. Look at the 5-60 times for the BRZ, they are pitiful because of the dip. The BRZ was dead even with my stock *GSR* from a 20MPH roll until I had to shift in the BRZ, then the GS-R pulled a bit.

Are those numbers from the same dyno on the same day? If not, they don't mean much. I could go make a dyno show my BRZ at 150hp, and then change some settings to make it match a 170whp dyno.

Some stock ITRs (ie good driver at sea level strips) have also posted 13.8-13.9 in the quarter, has a BRZ touched that yet?

I gain nothing by stating the ITR is faster, but I doubt my BRZ is that much slower than the norm or that my ITR is that much faster than the norm.

I even stated from a launch, the two should be more or less equal.

The frs is basically a rwd itr. I love the people talking about understeer like they have any experience in one of these cars. My civic gets more tail happy than most rwd cars.

I just wrote the same reply I'd make to this in the other reply. The torque dip is KILLER on these cars. By feel I thought it would be as fast or faster until I ran both next to each other. The dip kills it and once the ITR is in the powerband it never drops back out. The weight makes a difference too.

Also, while the trans gearing itself is better in the BRZ, the final drive is taller. I'm too lazy to do the math, but I doubt the gearing is much, if any, better in the BRZ. Especially when you include the 1.2" larger diameter wheel and tire package.

I'm not slamming the BRZ or really defending the ITR, but since I own both and the guy wanted opinions from owners of both (past or present) these are my opinions. It in no way makes me regret purchasing my BRZ and I love the car. They are apples and oranges IMO. The BRZ is much more like a RWD GSR IMO than an RWD ITR.

I'm sorry, but there's no way on God's green earth, that a 195 hp, 2639 lb ITR with complete interior and 195/55/15 tires is touching anywhere near 13.9...even at E-Town. If that's the case, then a 180 hp, 2500 lb GTS with BETTER gearing should be 13.7 bone stock.

Come on man, you're a mod. You should know that not everything posted on a forum is absolute truth. Especially for honda boys.

And stock ITRs more often than not with full tanks are 25xx.. Mine which has AC and stereo equipment is less than the curb weight with a full tank...

Man memories of vtec singing to 8500.....(and lack of torque)

Someone say RWD Integra?!?!

http://www.team-integra.net/forum/19...onversion.html

Except that I know the guy who did it multiple times (Not on slicks, but sticky street tires (not stock tires)), not basing my information on forum reading. Hell if you knew me at all you'd know that I wouldn't actually click on a "Look what my (insert car here) did in the 1320!!!" thread.

14.1-3s are easy on a stock ITR for those few who care enough to drag race them. I don't even know what the BRZ does in the qtr, I couldn't really care less about it.

Honestly, believe whatever you want. I'm the one who has run them against each other. Go find a stock ITR owner willing to do the same with you and post your results. :thumbup:

The torque dip sucks no doubt, but the lowest part of the dip is essentially the highest part of the ITR. The difference is where the torque is made. More torque at higher RPM = more hp, seeing as HP is just a function of torque.

I wouldn't compare the BRZ to a GSR. The GSR is pretty slow for being 170hp and a bit more peaky than the ITR. My intent isn't to get into a pissing contest between the two, just bring down the inflated opinions about the ITR a bit. Reel in the kite a little so to speak.

I haven't owned both, but I've driven both (and more) quite extensively. The ITR reminds me of my GTS, so I'd compare the ITR more to the GTS than the BRZ to the GSR.