When downshifting, I prefer to run out the current gear and then smash it into the lower gear. Racing Style and shit.

Why

Preferred downshifting method?
 

Glad you figured it out sounds alot better than the 4th to neutral stops on page 1. And yea tap the breaks beforehand so that automatic driver on his cell doesnt roll into you xD.

Sometimes I think one should have to be grandfathered in to get a manual. Like only if your pops or older brother (or sis) taught you. Not that its hard to learn if you take the time.

As for the heal-toe. I find the gas pedal on this car too pushed in and generally not incredibly responsive (drive by wire) to do it well unless braking hard.

Left paddle. ;)
But I've also driven manual for so many years that I still brake with the ball of my foot and hover the pinky toe over the throttle. The manual version of this car is a blast to rev match and really easy, but the auto is still faster.


Tapatalk - because smoke signals would be too easy.

As long as you've mentioned it, the ECU resists revving the engine while the brake is applied. If you're going to heel-toe, do the pedal dance first. The difference is night and day. It just becomes a regular gas pedal - no interference.

*puts on flame suit*

I believe maybe one out of every thousand people that claim they double clutch on a daily basis.

We invented synchros for a reason, lol. This transmission is so cheap I don't give a shit if I blow one out.

All day - erry day :cheers:

PM when you are in NY we can go for a drive.

I don't do it because I think I'm so good at driving. I started doing it because I needed more time to think out my rev match. For 6-4 or 6-3 downshifts. Funny enough I never double clutch on the track lol

If you're wearing out your clutch, you're doing it wrong. The whole point of rev matching is that you DON'T wear out your clutch when downshifting.

This quote was in regard to heel/toe.

When I was 17 and 18 years old, I played alto sax in an 18-piece professional jazz orchestra. At the time I was learning to master overtones, extremely high notes beyond what the instrument was designed for. As we were warming up in a ballroom prior to a big event, I started running through piercingly high scales.

The first tenor leaned over to me and said, "This probably isn't the right venue for practicing overtones."

He was absolutely right. There are places for extreme techniques and places where you shouldn't do them.

I use rev matching on just about every drive. I don't find many opportunities to use heel/toe on the street, however, and I fear these discussions give some of the inexperienced drivers on this board the idea that they should be practicing it when turning into the local Costco parking lot. Generally speaking, public roads are a place you shouldn't be practicing extreme techniques.

Especially overtones. Don't practice overtone scales on your saxophone while driving.

If you need time to think out your rev match, you're overthinking your rev match.

All this talk of double clutching made me want to see this again. Sound mixing by the legendary Richard Portman, who made sure McQueen's double clutching made it into the final sound mix (around 1:10 in the 2nd video). I first watched this movie as a teenager and went right out and tried (failed) to duplicate the double clutching in my Triumph.

[ame="https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=31JgMAHVeg0"]Bullitt - The Chase (part 1) - YouTube[/ame]
[ame="https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wk9SZbrh_Tg"]Bullitt - The Chase (Part 2) - YouTube[/ame]

You're not wrong. Just a habit I developed now I do it all the time. :(

Amen!


I do enjoy the thought process of many when it comes to downshifting though. Almost every argument against it involves "but it is hard on the engine, transmission drive train, etc to jolt it like that". It seems like everybody thinks you need to downshift and slam the car to red line. When downshifting to use engine braking I will rarely even end up at 3 or 4K after the shift. There are no jolts, stresses or any other abnormal conditions to any components. It just feels like an auto downshifting on it's own.


I love reading:
"OH I redline 100 times a day"
"This car would be much better with 350HP"
"Turbo is required for this car"
"I love kicking that rear around ever single corner"
"Need at least 20 degrees camber to be right"
"Wide sticky tires are a must if you really drive this car right"
"Got me a header and a tune from Bubba's Back Ally tuning"


"WHAT YOU DOWNSHIFT TO BRAKE? YOU ARE DESTORYING YOUR CAR YOU MORON. ROTORS CHEAPER THAN ENGINES FOOL"

Any time you use the clutch you are, by definition, wearing it just like any time you use the brakes you wear them and anytime you start up the engine you wear it.

To what degree it's worn down is up to the driver. Hence why the daily driver who doesnt rev past 6k is most likely going to have lesswear on their parts in comparison to the weekend trackday person. Regardless, the more you needlessly use the clutch to brake when you don't have to, the more you subject yourself to replacing the clutch quicker than replacing your brakes.

I've seen someone do this on a stage 2 clutch for an evo...


Not quite sure why other users on this forum are making it sound like this idea is off or something, it's standard physics and common sense, really.
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Apparently this is a fairly common practice:


http://www.patrol-log.com/wp-content...-Saxophone.jpg


https://www.lapatilla.com/site/wp-co...ing_640_11.jpg


https://i.ytimg.com/vi/0FEEaGE3xIU/hqdefault.jpg


http://tosh.comedycentral.com/blog/f...11/08/sax1.jpg

Exactly how much life do you think is taken off the clutch by using engine braking?

[ame="https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0FEEaGE3xIU"]Driver Plays Saxophone on Freeway while driving.MOV - YouTube[/ame]
[ame="https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YzaYJM3ECeE"]Beyond texting and driving - YouTube[/ame]

That depends on like I said A) The driver and whether or not they are rev-matching correctly or if they aren't rev matching at all and just straight downshifting into an engine brake and B) How frequently it is done and at what RPM it is predominately done at.

On a personal and subjective level, I noticed the engine braking on this car is not anything special compared to other cars I've driven and hence my reasoning for straying away from it.

That said, the only time I ever revmatch is on spirited drives where I want to go into a corner at a specific RPM so I can come faster out rather than lug the engine.

I eventually end up saying this on almost every thread about "how to drive MT".
This car is very easy to shift with no clutch. I have demonstrated this to each of my children (and grand kids) when teaching them to drive MT.

No it is NOT something you want to do frequently but it IS a good tool to learn the RPM engagement points.
I can shift from 1st up to 6th and 6th back down to 2nd without ever touching the clutch and without grinding a gear.
If you can do that, you are rev matching properly.





No it does not. I engine brake & heel/toe all the time and have never noticed lack of response.

I also practice certain corners to/from work every day to see if I can negotiate the turn with no brakes at all (lots of engine braking). I'll even bet that some drivers behind me think that my brake lights are out.


I installed the heel/toe gas pedal, and now I find myself downshifting & heel toeing all the time, it is automatic.
I first learned with my Porsche 914 in college because it would not idle. If you didn't heel toe to keep the revs up, it would stall every time coming to a stop.

And this right here is the problem. Inevitably when the subject of engine braking comes up, somebody always posts that comment about brakes being cheaper than clutches/engines/transmissions/tires/shift knobs/air filters/new stereos/pine-scented air fresheners/whatever. Yet nobody ever provides any actual evidence that it increases wear in any measurable or quantifiable amount. The reverse torque on the car is minor compared to the torque applied during hard forward acceleration, and the clutch shouldn't see much wear at all if the revs are matched.

Even if you start messing with hypotheticals, it still doesn't make much sense. If it cut clutch life in half, we would have seen some sort of evidence of that in all the years people have been doing it. So any reduction has to be less than half. Is it 10%? 20%? If the clutch would normally last 150K miles, and now it will last 135K instead, is that really a difference worth worrying about that you have to replace the clutch in year 6 of ownership instead of year 7? At that point how would you even be sure the clutch wear was caused by this and not just bad driving technique all around?

I think it's funny that people talk on this board about doing all sorts of things that stress the fuck out of this car, yet there's always somebody worried about minor, unsubstantiated wear from engine braking.

Actually, you undermine your own argument with that comment. My old Triumph with the inline 6 could put your face into the steering wheel with a downshift. The little 4 cylinder in the twins has higher compression but revs higher and doesn't give nearly the braking power. That means there's less shock from engine braking on the entire system. It's almost as if the car were designed with this type of driving in mind.

Yea... My rev matching and double clutching is not done in any regard to extending the life of any part of the car. In fact I'm sure this car (with 40k miles) has more wear and tear on it than my 2003 accord with 140k miles based on the way I drive it.

ITT thread: Basic Physics is ignored.

Moving along.

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nope.

hit the clutch

hit the gear

hit the gas

im gone

Yeah I didn't use my motorcycle as an example of something that engine brakes well because it weighed a quarter of what this car weighs and all movements were exaggerated. It was 400 ccs by the way. Even at the MSF courses the 125s engine braked like a dream.

Motorcycles and cars are two different machines.



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I wonder if these people would put their money where their mouth is. Thought expirament: 2 cars that are identical and are driven the same up for sale both for the same price. 1 has 300 kms one has 30,000 kms. I wonder if these guys would buy the 30,000 km car based on their logic.

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wut? 300kms is new

I don't get it

I just give the paddle on the left a pull :)

LOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOL
Beat ya to it!

lol with a loud ass rev match and loud popping exhaust nonsense goin on..

Isn't that how I get instagram followers?

Hey Bute remember that the designers of these clutches, transmissions and engines are also well versed in physics and actually design the cars to be downshifted and engine braked. It is not something people are doing beyond the design of the car.

simple answer to all of this. Just go buy a fucking automatic if you're worried about "engine braking"

Which strangely enough uses engine braking!

yeah but the driver isn't in control of the engine braking.. the car is, so it can't be the driver's fault.

You're missing the point... they don't make the cars fool proof. And nothing lasts forever. Stop over simplifying everything.

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Fireball or GTFO

But you said we are OVERCOMPLICATING by rev matching and double clutching

OMG you guys MAKE UP YOUR MIND

You sound like my GF picking eyeliner!

Did you buy your twin for it to last forever? I've got bad news...


Someone asked the question of the wear of engine braking. I would assume that, if you were consistent in your driving style, it's probably similar to other shifts/accel.

I didn't buy my car to drive like a grandma on a sunday. Sometimes I rev match and engine brake. Clutches ain't that bad on the wallet, and it's not like you gotta buy one every 6 months.

If you do it smoothly, as @Tcoat mentioned, it's not a problem. If your car jearks around, hits the limiter, or generally doesn't sound or feel right, you're doing it wrong. Then again, if you can't do it right, you might not know when it feels wrong, I guess.

No I believe YOU are missing the point.
The car was designed to engine brake just like any "Sports car" out there.


If you are so worried about wear, why do you drive your car at all?
You know you are wearing out the wheel bearings don't you?


Engine braking does not wear much more than coasting.
The engine is still spinning in either case.
In fact some say that hard engine braking is essential to seating the piston rings when breaking in a newly rebuilt motor.

Not "over simplifying" anything. It is simple. Cars are built to up and down shift. This whole downshift is bad mentality is just an application of quasi physics with no real world impact at all. Do autos go into neutral when you slow down? No, they downshift. Why the hell would manuals not be the same? Yes, you are correct, they do not make them fool proof and if you fuck up you can damage things that does not mean that you can not do things right without fear of damage.

You haven't done it with the nannies cut because the difference is night and day. Normally, if you give it enough throttle the computer eventually says "ok you must really mean it." You've adapted to that.

Have you even read a single post ive written? Youre not even refuting things ive said. When did i say engine braking was bad? I said using engine braking as your main method of stopping is bad and causes undue wear via downshifting. Before you make it sound as if im saying its bad for the engine, please direct me to where ive said that. I'm focusing on the clutch right now.

No offense, but surely someone with 30+ posts per day who practically lives and breathes on this forum would have better comprehension than that...

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:popcorn: