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Toyota GR86, 86, FR-S and Subaru BRZ Forum & Owners Community - FT86CLUB (https://www.ft86club.com/forums/index.php)
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-   -   Track Cars.. On a Budget. (https://www.ft86club.com/forums/showthread.php?t=95583)

synchromesh 10-04-2015 01:45 PM
I wish I were still in my 20's and had an extra parking spot for a sub 10g track-ready vehicle. I don't really judge in any circumstance anyways.


If one tracks an e30 M3, don't be surprised it will cost as much as a 2009 M3 to keep in tip-top shape. If I saw one on the track, honestly would respect the e30 more than a 2015, though.


You might want to avoid the MR-2. Convinced even the lightest of contact with someone on the track will result in an uncorrectable spinout. Almost bought an showroom N/A one ten years ago for like 4 thousand bucks.


Strange to not see any mk1 GTI's on the road anymore.

rice_classic 10-04-2015 02:56 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by Carlysh (Post 2409234)
this thread is good i been looking around for a dedicated track car, although the Frs with simple mods can be fun but i am looking for something that if it break i can leave it in the garage and take the Frs to work

Good info in here
If you can afford a "dedicated track car" then consider buying a used race car. That way if you want to go racing you can and since it's dedicated you can set it up specifically for track without having to make any concessions regarding streetability in your setup. Meaning you can go super stiff or in the case of a FWD car (if you went that route) you can setup to be suuuuper loose which is dangerous on the street but fast on the track and very rewarding to "get right".

The other part to consider, since it will be dedicated to the track, is safety. Buying a used race car means you get a race seat, 5pt/6pt belts and a cage so you're safe in the event you ball it up. Also, since it's a used race car it has ultra low resale value so you can get into something fun, fast and is also affordable to "ball it up" vs anything else.

CRX:
http://classifieds.racerconnect.com/details.php?id=474

E46:
http://nasaforums.com/viewtopic.php?f=31&t=129883

Civic: (formerly raced by Shea Holbrook)
http://nasaforums.com/viewtopic.php?f=31&t=129961

NASA National Championship Car:
http://classifieds.racerconnect.com/...c/details.html

ITS Prepped 240sx:
http://classifieds.racerconnect.com/...-/details.html

Carlysh 10-04-2015 04:36 PM
Yeah I went to rx-7 club and there is a thread the community saying to a guy that stick with the Miata because is super cheap, but they also stated that a Rx-8 is really good and can find one at a decent price

Dave-ROR 10-04-2015 05:33 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by synchromesh (Post 2409907)
I wish I were still in my 20's and had an extra parking spot for a sub 10g track-ready vehicle. I don't really judge in any circumstance anyways.


If one tracks an e30 M3, don't be surprised it will cost as much as a 2009 M3 to keep in tip-top shape. If I saw one on the track, honestly would respect the e30 more than a 2015, though.


You might want to avoid the MR-2. Convinced even the lightest of contact with someone on the track will result in an uncorrectable spinout. Almost bought an showroom N/A one ten years ago for like 4 thousand bucks.


Strange to not see any mk1 GTI's on the road anymore.
I've seen lots of mr2s collect with others on track. They really spin. You just need to know how to drive them.

Carlysh 10-04-2015 05:46 PM
1 Attachment(s)
Maybe next year I build one of these since it was my first car, problem is aftermarket support are bad, maybe swap a 4g63 to it

Dave-ROR 10-04-2015 06:04 PM
^^ at the very minimum replace the head with a non-jet one.


I miss my old Conquest and always keep an eye out for an 88 or 89. Hard to find a nice one for cheap. I bought mine for $900 and it was a perfectly good car. Rallycrossed and autocrossed it. It was a blast. Spun a bearing doing donuts with it eventually :( Ended up parting it out for well over 3k.

Carlysh 10-04-2015 06:15 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by Dave-ROR (Post 2410032)
^^ at the very minimum replace the head with a non-jet one.


I miss my old Conquest and always keep an eye out for an 88 or 89. Hard to find a nice one for cheap. I bought mine for $900 and it was a perfectly good car. Rallycrossed and autocrossed it. It was a blast. Spun a bearing doing donuts with it eventually :( Ended up parting it out for well over 3k.
Yeah I miss it a lot. was fun and fast, I sometimes check the forums starquestclub to see what they are selling

ZDan 10-05-2015 12:13 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by Frost (Post 2407017)
Just got the XP10's dropped in today and literally just came off bedding them. Track day on the 10th. Looking forward to that.

Have you had rotor overheating issues?
I once cracked a rotor at the track, but I knew they were near minimum thickness limit so came prepared with replacements :)
Since then I just replace them well before they get to minimum thickness and have had no problems.

jawn 10-05-2015 12:21 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by Dave-ROR (Post 2410013)
I've seen lots of mr2s collect with others on track. They really spin. You just need to know how to drive them.
Yeah, my buddies run an AW11 MR2 in LeMons. Aside from their engine bay catching on fire, it's been fine for wheel-to-wheel racing.

avishenoy1 10-05-2015 12:34 PM
Great starting point for track builds: http://www.japaneseclassicsllc.com/

Dave-ROR 10-05-2015 12:48 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by avishenoy1 (Post 2410583)
Great starting point for track builds: http://www.japaneseclassicsllc.com/
Not really. A good starting point to buy a JDM vehicle but that's about it. A USDM car will always be cheaper to build and parts will be far more easily found than many performance Japanese cars that don't use parts sold at Autozone.

Dave-ROR 10-05-2015 12:49 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by Carlysh (Post 2410038)
Yeah I miss it a lot. was fun and fast, I sometimes check the forums starquestclub to see what they are selling
Man I haven't been on that forum in probably 10 years. Do they still have that really terrible 1990s style forum software? hah

strat61caster 10-05-2015 01:41 PM
@rice_classic What's the budget for a reliable tow vehicle and trailer to get the racecar to the track?

Dave-ROR 10-05-2015 04:19 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by strat61caster (Post 2410682)
@rice_classic What's the budget for a reliable tow vehicle and trailer to get the racecar to the track?
Hugely depends on how much you want to work on something, how much you are towing and how often/far.

I spent a bit over 10k on my 10 year old Chevy Suburban, but it's a 3/4 ton with the 8.1 big block which has a larger rear end, axles and beefier transmission. Payload is a fair bit over 2,000lbs and tow rating is 12,000lbs.

A diesel of similar vintage like the Ford PSD 7.3's in 250 or 350 trim (prefer 350 dually) are around the same cost, more with lower miles, etc but lacked the interior storage which I wanted (out of the weather, etc).

On the smaller side, a Toyota 4Runner V8 from 05-09 will tow up to ~7,000lbs and do so very reliably. You can spent ~15k on a decent one with 100-150k and it'll last a good long time but I wouldn't try to pull an enclosed trailer with one. Shorter wheelbase so less stable towing also. For a bit more, a 5.7 Sequoia or whatever works as well. About the same capacity but a larger vehicle. Also 08+ so look at 20k or more probably.

Some say VW Touareg.. but I don't trust VWs to be reliable long term. Easier to find than the Toyotas and cheaper with lower mileage.. so no one else does either ;) Supposedly the second gen is better but more expensive.

Or you can spend 30-70k and buy a new tow vehicle :)

I also know some people who have bought old F150s for 3-6k that will work, but I'd limit long distance towing.

Most important thing to look at IMO is payload and tow rating. Don't look at just the tow rating. You may find that you have no capacity for more than 2 people and a few bags of clothes....

Oh yeah, if you don't mind creeper vans, those can tow very well also. You can even get PSD 7.3 E series Fords.

Carlysh 10-06-2015 07:19 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by Dave-ROR (Post 2410607)
Man I haven't been on that forum in probably 10 years. Do they still have that really terrible 1990s style forum software? hah
i think so, it looks so outdated lol

Carlysh 10-06-2015 07:20 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by rice_classic (Post 2409944)
If you can afford a "dedicated track car" then consider buying a used race car. That way if you want to go racing you can and since it's dedicated you can set it up specifically for track without having to make any concessions regarding streetability in your setup. Meaning you can go super stiff or in the case of a FWD car (if you went that route) you can setup to be suuuuper loose which is dangerous on the street but fast on the track and very rewarding to "get right".

The other part to consider, since it will be dedicated to the track, is safety. Buying a used race car means you get a race seat, 5pt/6pt belts and a cage so you're safe in the event you ball it up. Also, since it's a used race car it has ultra low resale value so you can get into something fun, fast and is also affordable to "ball it up" vs anything else.

CRX:
http://classifieds.racerconnect.com/details.php?id=474

E46:
http://nasaforums.com/viewtopic.php?f=31&t=129883

Civic: (formerly raced by Shea Holbrook)
http://nasaforums.com/viewtopic.php?f=31&t=129961

NASA National Championship Car:
http://classifieds.racerconnect.com/...c/details.html

ITS Prepped 240sx:
http://classifieds.racerconnect.com/...-/details.html
i like the crx, i dont mind fwd
and the 240sx looks good thanks for the site i check all the miatas too

fumanchu1 10-06-2015 02:43 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by caliprep (Post 2406979)
There are only two cars I'll never be caught dead in...That is a Miata and a Beetle.

I would doing nothing less than a E36 M3 and a S2K. Possibly an e36 325i
What about a old beetle based dune buggy with a Porsche flat 6, some of the most fun and awesome looking buggies.

mn_ca 10-07-2015 12:21 AM
FX16 GTS? My friend's friend has one and it's one fun car! Lightweight too!

rice_classic 10-08-2015 12:38 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by strat61caster (Post 2410682)
@rice_classic What's the budget for a reliable tow vehicle and trailer to get the racecar to the track?
I'm a cheapskate. I bought a 20' enclosed trailer from a fellow racer for $3800! Then I turned around and bought a 2003 Ford Expedition with the Big-Tow package that was somewhat neglected from a co-worker for $3800 (but needed $2k worth of love) and I was set! I wanted an Excursion but finding a good one was going to stretch my budget and finding a good condition Expedition for $3800 was something I couldn't pass up (it has a 8600lb towing capacity).

But I used to tow on the super cheap with a 1996 E150 Conversion van.. Yes, with the folding bed and TV and all. I could only tow an open deck trailer but I saved money at the track because I would sleep in the van.

But used V8 'Murican is your "tow-for-cheap" solution, just make sure whatever you choose has a tow-package such as better gearing, wired for trailer brakes and has engine/trans oil coolers.

Carlysh 10-09-2015 01:22 PM
So after some research on the miata , i found that with 8k or less you can put a k motor on that miata and you retain you drive line and everything else, i must say for a weekend warrior and street car this is very interesting given the fact that the K motors from honda are really reliable and high revving what you guys think?

MisterSheep 10-09-2015 01:24 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by Carlysh (Post 2415208)
So after some research on the miata , i found that with 8k or less you can put a k motor on that miata and you retain you drive line and everything else, i must say for a weekend warrior and street car this is very interesting given the fact that the K motors from honda are really reliable and high revving what you guys think?
K motors are from the s2000 correct? I dont know much about hondas....

strat61caster 10-09-2015 01:48 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by Carlysh (Post 2415208)
So after some research on the miata , i found that with 8k or less you can put a k motor on that miata and you retain you drive line and everything else, i must say for a weekend warrior and street car this is very interesting given the fact that the K motors from honda are really reliable and high revving what you guys think?
Many many many hours of effort (maybe fabrication work?) and troubleshooting to get everything harmoniously working, Florida is super lax on motoring laws so that shouldn't be an issue.

After seeing project cars do unexpected things and owners scrambling for hours and missing runs and sessions, it's a labor of love with small reward. My money is on reliability, keep it simple stupid and maximize seat time, keep it stock.

While a Civic Si or TSX motor would be awesome, (~200hp @ 7k rpm) and reliable, the potential issues won't be the block itself but rather all your wiring, sensors, everything mating up well mechanically (no rubs or unforeseen stresses), and ECM. Custom dashboard or a bunch of stick on gauges? Custom exhaust setup? This is not a summer project unless it's your full time job and you have access to a good shop, most people spend years on these kinds of setups before everything is dialed in.

I'd spend the $8k on setting up the Miata real nice, good chassis to start spending up to $5k, nice set of revalved koni/bilsteins with quality springs from any of the half dozen companies that offer them off the shelf, go through all the bushings, roll bar, quality tires and brakes, full fluid flush. Assuming this is a casual track/autox car I'd say maintain DD-ability so you can drive it to the track without stressing yourself out and avoid the costs of a tow vehicle because you've gone full stipped and caged.

For me the name of the game is seat time, you want zero excuses to not go out and flog the car.

Quote:
Originally Posted by MisterSheep (Post 2415211)
K motors are from the s2000 correct? I dont know much about hondas....
No, S2k uses an F20C

Wiki is a fantastic resource for stuff like this, the K Series is primarily used for higher trim Integra/RSX/Civic, and Accord/TSX/ILX with a few larger cars/cuv using it as a base engine from the early 00's onwards. Good for 160-220 hp depending on what model which should be a solid upgrade for an NA/NB

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Honda_K_engine

MisterSheep 10-09-2015 01:58 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by strat61caster (Post 2415253)
No, S2k uses an F20C

Wiki is a fantastic resource for stuff like this, the K Series is primarily used for higher trim Integra/RSX/Civic, and Accord/TSX/ILX with a few larger cars/cuv using it as a base engine from the early 00's onwards. Good for 160-220 hp depending on what model which should be a solid upgrade for an NA/NB

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Honda_K_engine
What about putting the F20C in a miata?.... 240hp. and a 9k redline depending if you get the ap1 over the ap2.

DarkSunrise 10-09-2015 02:02 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by MisterSheep (Post 2415272)
What about putting the F20C in a miata?.... 240hp. and a 9k redline depending if you get the ap1 over the ap2.
Is that really worth the effort over just getting an S2000?

MisterSheep 10-09-2015 02:13 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by DarkSunrise (Post 2415283)
Is that really worth the effort over just getting an S2000?
depends on the price. Maybe you have a miata. That has too much money in it to sell it for a reasonable price and you're looking for a lightweight enigne swap for a little more power but not much. instead of loosing money to sell the miata and buy a s2000 one may consider just swapping the engine.

Or maybe we should be on the topic of swapping a flat 4 in a miata.

Or maybe..... MAYBE. a F20C in a frs.
:lol:

DarkSunrise 10-09-2015 02:22 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by MisterSheep (Post 2415305)
Or maybe..... MAYBE. a F20C in a frs.
:lol:
That's the dream right there :burnrubber:

MisterSheep 10-09-2015 02:29 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by DarkSunrise (Post 2415330)
That's the dream right there :burnrubber:
I was waiting for a

"get out of here! a Honda engine in the FRS???" @finch1750

strat61caster 10-09-2015 02:40 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by MisterSheep (Post 2415305)
depends on the price. Maybe you have a miata. That has too much money in it to sell it for a reasonable price and you're looking for a lightweight enigne swap for a little more power but not much. instead of loosing money to sell the miata and buy a s2000 one may consider just swapping the engine.

Or maybe we should be on the topic of swapping a flat 4 in a miata.

Or maybe..... MAYBE. a F20C in a frs.
:lol:
Lets see hours of fab work, wiring, troubleshooting OR forced induction copying the hundreds of builds already documented for similar money.

Cheapest F20C on ebay right now is $3k, $4k with tranny.

I get it, Miata with F20C can save a good what 500-600 lbs over an S2k, certainly a potent combo if well setup, S2k killer for under $10k if performance is the only requirement and you start with a cheap chassis.

Same deal with an 86, $4k on F20C+Tranny plus unknown labor, fab, wiring, troubleshooting, and for me emissions laws makes it unstreetable. Or $6k on a supercharger that puts ~240hp to the wheels instead of the crank that's emissions legal...

MisterSheep 10-09-2015 02:44 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by strat61caster (Post 2415360)
Lets see hours of fab work, wiring, troubleshooting OR forced induction copying the hundreds of builds already documented for similar money.

Cheapest F20C on ebay right now is $3k, $4k with tranny.

I get it, Miata with F20C can save a good what 500-600 lbs over an S2k, certainly a potent combo if well setup, S2k killer for under $10k if performance is the only requirement and you start with a cheap chassis.

Same deal with an 86, $4k on F20C+Tranny plus unknown labor, fab, wiring, troubleshooting, and for me emissions laws makes it unstreetable. Or $6k on a supercharger that puts ~240hp to the wheels instead of the crank that's emissions legal...
I have emissions in my state as well. I'm not saying I'm willing to do it but you got to realize we live in a world of what if's and people wanting to try new things. Maybe people have the skills of custom fabbing equipment and skills for any engine their heart desires.

Ever seen the 2jz mustang?
2jz frs? 2jz s2k? 2jz r34 skyline? 2jz 240z? porsche powered bug? sti powered bug? v8 powered miata?

People do crazy shit if they want. Why you always gota bring em down man? :bellyroll:

And i do know you're just being realistic.

53Driver 10-09-2015 02:46 PM
AP1 and AP2 in Honda speak refers to the chassis. In the North American market, the AP2 chassis received the F22C engine, whereas the rest of the world continued to get the original F20C engine (Japan did start getting the F22 in 2006). If it were me, I wouldn't put forth the effort to drop a F20/22 into a Miata, I'd just buy a freakin' S2K! Just my humble opinion.


https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Honda_S2000

strat61caster 10-09-2015 02:51 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by MisterSheep (Post 2415373)
I have emissions in my state as well. I'm not saying I'm willing to do it but you got to realize we live in a world of what if's and people wanting to try new things. Maybe people have the skills of custom fabbing equipment and skills for any engine their heart desires.
If I didn't have to worry about emissions and my FA20 let go, I'd be working on a 13B swap purely out of stubborn rotary love.

As it stands I'd rebuild it, upgrade the known weakpoints and run it again until it lets go because nothing else makes sense for this chassis to me.

Dave-ROR 10-09-2015 03:17 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by Carlysh (Post 2415208)
So after some research on the miata , i found that with 8k or less you can put a k motor on that miata and you retain you drive line and everything else, i must say for a weekend warrior and street car this is very interesting given the fact that the K motors from honda are really reliable and high revving what you guys think?
K-Miata. They sponsor ITR expo as well. Good guys!

Dave-ROR 10-09-2015 03:19 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by DarkSunrise (Post 2415283)
Is that really worth the effort over just getting an S2000?
Miata is lighter, cheaper consumables and has better aero from the factory. I'd k swap a Miata over buying another S2000 but I'm one of the seemingly rare group that didn't really care about the S2000. I haven't missed mine since I sold it.

Carlysh 10-09-2015 05:27 PM
[ame="https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ohh2XYpKfVQ"]K24 Miata Mid Ohio testing - 217whp street car - YouTube[/ame]

Carlysh 10-09-2015 05:34 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by strat61caster (Post 2415253)
Many many many hours of effort (maybe fabrication work?) and troubleshooting to get everything harmoniously working, Florida is super lax on motoring laws so that shouldn't be an issue.

After seeing project cars do unexpected things and owners scrambling for hours and missing runs and sessions, it's a labor of love with small reward. My money is on reliability, keep it simple stupid and maximize seat time, keep it stock.

While a Civic Si or TSX motor would be awesome, (~200hp @ 7k rpm) and reliable, the potential issues won't be the block itself but rather all your wiring, sensors, everything mating up well mechanically (no rubs or unforeseen stresses), and ECM. Custom dashboard or a bunch of stick on gauges? Custom exhaust setup? This is not a summer project unless it's your full time job and you have access to a good shop, most people spend years on these kinds of setups before everything is dialed in.

I'd spend the $8k on setting up the Miata real nice, good chassis to start spending up to $5k, nice set of revalved koni/bilsteins with quality springs from any of the half dozen companies that offer them off the shelf, go through all the bushings, roll bar, quality tires and brakes, full fluid flush. Assuming this is a casual track/autox car I'd say maintain DD-ability so you can drive it to the track without stressing yourself out and avoid the costs of a tow vehicle because you've gone full stipped and caged.

For me the name of the game is seat time, you want zero excuses to not go out and flog the car.



No, S2k uses an F20C

Wiki is a fantastic resource for stuff like this, the K Series is primarily used for higher trim Integra/RSX/Civic, and Accord/TSX/ILX with a few larger cars/cuv using it as a base engine from the early 00's onwards. Good for 160-220 hp depending on what model which should be a solid upgrade for an NA/NB

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Honda_K_engine
Yeah I would start with the Miata handling first them power, I put a video so you can see it when you have the chance oem cluster work and everything else. I have to look up on hardness maybe the k Miata guys already sell them

Carlysh 10-09-2015 05:38 PM
I Check yep the sell the wiring hardness conversions, it like a plug and play only you have to spliced for the length if I am correct from the description

finch1750 10-09-2015 06:29 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by MisterSheep (Post 2415336)
I was waiting for a

"get out of here! a Honda engine in the FRS???" @finch1750
Damn right. That's almost as bad as a LS swap. Beams or bust. Lol

MisterSheep 10-09-2015 06:48 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by finch1750 (Post 2415708)
Damn right. That's almost as bad as a LS swap. Beams or bust. Lol
Rotary swap?

finch1750 10-09-2015 07:10 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by MisterSheep (Post 2415719)
Rotary swap?
20B only. 13B isn't worth it. :burnrubber:

Chrisgalactic 10-09-2015 07:15 PM
Toyota Ae86

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