Completely agree with what was said about the oil issues and the absolute NEED for better tires. I recommend to anyone I meet with a stock car to bump up to MPSS tires when they get a chance if they aren't going for a track car.

I've gotten oil temps in the mid 230 range just doing a quick 1 minute blitz through a short pass back and forth on a 70 degree night. Hell, just last night I did the same pass in the same temperature and it got to 225 with a hair longer wait between running it back.

I sit in traffic in the 205-210 range on a 90 degree day and I toy with the AC to get the coolant temps back to the 190 area and that sheds some oil heat too. Ideally this car would have come with the factory oil cooling option and a slightly thicker radiator to compensate for the added heat from the oil.

Porsche designs their cars to run at the track. They are opening (or already opened; haven't kept track of this) a Porsche driving school just down the freeway from me. Bone stock cars with factory fills being pushed by teachers and students. It's just how they do business and keep a pedigree like theirs.

My car already matches my EvoX when it comes to cornering speed and surpasses feel and all I've done are wheels and tires.

I do lust after the new Cayman though. Hell of a looker :drool:

Yes that's true. High oil temperatures might lead to power loss as the ECU retards the timing. However, we mentioned that BRZ is not a competition car. It is car that you can drive in a track and start learning or have fun. It wasn't easy for the factory to install an oil cooler. It sounds simple, but there are issues with the extra oil lines going around the bumper. This causes extra problems in a frontal crash or even an oil leakage in normal conditions because of the high pressures. There was already a TSB for all the Gazoo 86/BRZ Racing cars.

I've done close to 20 track days on my FR-S now. It's a decently stout track car IMO, certainly no worse than most. Obviously it's not as track-reliable as Porsche's dry-sumped GT3 cars for example, but how many cars are? So far my FR-S has needed pads/fluid/rotors, camber bolts, tires, oil cooler, and a coil pack.

The latter two items (coil pack & oil cooler) won't be needed by all. If you track in cooler weather or don't really push too hard, you probably won't need them. Re. oil temps, I actually don't think anyone's lost a stock engine yet due to oil temps/pressures, but a lot of guys will add an oil cooler pre-emptively based on oil temps they've logged, including myself.

The rest of the big money components on the Twins are quite good. The stock suspension will handle 200 TW street tires fine, and tires can be rotated thanks to the square setup. Brakes are stout. One of the ways the Twins lucked out was that it was co-developed by Subaru and shares its brake hardware with the WRX. Its brakes are fairly over-sized for its power/weight ratio (compare vs. S2000 which is notorious for cracking rotors). The Torsen LSD is decent for track use. Not the best, but better than a viscous unit for example.

The Twins don't really need much for track use (e.g., no rollover bar needed vs. Miata/S2000). And the best part is everything is pretty cheap on these cars.

- Rotor blanks - $200
- Tires - $400
- Pads - $300
- Camber bolts - $30
- Oil cooler - $500
- Coil pack - $100

BTW I used to have a 2009 Boxster S. Definitely a phenomenal car, but for track use specifically, I think I might prefer the FR-S because of its reduced running costs, more playful handling balance, and lighter feel.

I completely agree. Like I said, the P-cars I have had are great....but if I could only have one car between the two (and many others) I would choose the BRZ. If you want a great entry level "newer" track toy car (that has much more potential waiting to be unlocked) you really can't do better for your money than the BRZ/FRS.


I like everything I have read so far in the last few posts. I realize there are more people tracking their BRZ. Which, I honestly believe you can not appreciate the car fully, till you have gone to a closed course.


Also, I can add to the engine pulling timing and power to save itself from 300+ degree oil. The engine definitely saves itself, which is great. Just means you have to do a few cooldown laps before you get back on the power....or more likely just head back to the pits and let the oil cool.


Bang for buck....BRZ wins it. My last BRZ and I had a special bond. Its the only car I have gotten rid of, that I am still sad over 5 months later.


I am sure I will have another.

Sorry, I missed the part about it being a 100 degree day. That does change things a bit.

Though I fail to see why I "don't get it". I previously owned a BRZ, as well as S2000. And now I own a 987, so it's pretty obvious I value handling and feel traits over brute force and high hp. My GS-R only visited the track once, but it was a 90 degree summer day in GA and it had no issues. Ditto the S2000 (with track pads) though that car does come with an oil cooler and was designed for a higher price point.

But please, flesh out your argument for why I don't get "it".


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oh I had a GS-R once. early 2000's when the whole "Imoprt tuner" aka Fast and Furious thing was kicking off. 190hp Hondas with obnoxious exhausts and azn car models. those were the days.... :thumbup::burnrubber:

Did you even read my full post?

You don't seem to get that cars are not made for the track, at least not 99.9% of the time. Even Cayman owners talk about oil coolers, bbks, lower control arms, pads, and brake fluid. Sounds like you think every car should be a GT3 RS. Gen 1 Caymans gave oil issues and reliability problems galore.

I said not a word about power and handling.

Hah that's actually what I say to my wife about my old Boxster S. I still periodically look at 987.2 Boxster/Cayman S used prices. Just a great all-around car.

And did you read mine? :bonk: Lightweight low hp cars (especially sports cars) shouldn't have any issue at the track due to the low thermal loads placed on the vehicle. $10 says you can take a new Miata (or old Miata even) to the track and outside of fresh brake fluid and track pads have no thermal problems. Hell, $50 says you can take a Honda Fit to the track and also have no problems. Integra Type R, RSX-S, Civic Si? No problems...

Blah blah blah Cayman owners blah blah blah. Yes, if someone's a hardcore track rat they'll want those upgrades. But actually no, the Cayman doesn't need any of that crap to be track worthy. Will those things improve it's performance? Sure! Just as they would on any other car. And hate to rain on your parade but no, 987.1 Caymans don't have oil and reliability issues "galore". The only oil issue is if you run your Cayman at the track on racing rubber @ tracks with long high speed turns. The g forces put on the car in such a scenario will cause oil starvation. But again, that's on race rubber. Street legal DOT tires = no problems.

I took my car with only wheels, pulleys and a cat back exhaust to Deals Gap for a weekend and beat the hell out of it for 13miles at a time without any problems. not a track of course but you get the idea.

It's worth noting that if the Twins only overheat on track when the ambient temp is over 100°F then I have no qualms with that. As previously noted I missed that tidbit of info before my earlier response. :thumbup:

I ran at Laguna Seca in 70 degree weather without a cooler and had no issue. Then I ran at Thunderhill in 115 degree weather and had an issue. Now I have an oil cooler. I ran in 100 degree weather at Thunderhill and had no issue. It was a cool day for the month.

That's freaking awesome. I'd love to run on those tracks. :drool:

Just a drive away!

VIR is only 90 miles away for me, so I suppose I'm grateful for that :-)

I think Boxster is not a good choice If you like modified car. I mean everything is expensive for Porsche.

Having owned an FR-S for 3.5 years and 50,000 miles, I sold the car with the hopes of moving onto the 987.1 Cayman S platform.

Test drove the Cayman S for an hour the other weekend. Fantastic car, sublime handling and built in the same ethos as the FR-S. It feels familiar because the FR-S was built with the Porsche in mind as a benchmark. That being said, it didn't provide the sense of occasion and thrill I had built up in my mind. The FR-S is really 80% of a cayman already, less some engineering, fancy interior and German quality (doors thunk!).

I ended up not getting a Cayman. I'll have my Porsche some day, but it'll need to be something a bit more special (964, 993, etc.). The Cayman is really good, but perhaps being rough around the edges has its charms.

Good luck with that, as the way trends are progressing a new 991 will be cheaper than a lightly used 964 or 993.


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There's a reason for that. Steering feel sucks on the 991 and the car is bloated both on dimensions and weight. The gearing is long as well; those who row their own won't need to work so much (good and bad). Incoming forced induction from the factory will drive trickier maintenance no doubt. 997 is the 911 to buy right now if you don't want to pay an even higher Porsche tax on older generations.

Wait, what? In my experience a 981 2.7L is actually pretty fast, if you rev it out you hit 75mph pretty quickly (higher than any California road speed limit lol). My FR-S on the other hand...I am almost too embarassed to rev it because it doesn't really get going even over 6000rpm.

Oh I'm in absolute agreement. The EPS is in revolve numb compared to he older hydraulic rack. It's shameful they didn't (couldn't) make it better before release. As if a 1-2% gain in efficiency was worth this sacrifice. No way man...


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Thanks! Nice review.
You can't really compare, but then you can't compare based on price either.

I'd like to see a $50k porsche vs a $25k FRs with $25k worth of mods - now that would be a loooooooot of fun :)

3-8% efficiency gain according to this article: http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn...600032_pf.html

3% is enormous. 8% is ginormous. Hydraulic steering is like the carburetor. Maybe it is superior in some ways, like not needing a computer to adjust, but when looking at the whole equation, there's just no comparison.

EPS is no better or worse than hydraulic for steering feel. There are good and bad systems of both types. Perhaps because EPS is relatively new, more systems struggle in the feel department.

The FR-S/BRZ steering is electric, and I think it's pretty darned good.

Yup. Versus my old EvoX the feel is just about the same and that was hydraulic with a quick ratio.

Yah just goes to support what jsimon7777 mentioned - EPS has a stigma in general, but like any mechanical/hydraulic PS, it just depends on how it's implemented. Kudos to Subaru for getting it right.

Good points jsimon. So I guess I can just be mad at BMW and Porsche for apparently not caring enough to make the steering feel as good as older hydraulic racks.

I've read about the various types and the best EPS set up for feel is when you mount the motor on the rack and not the column. Naturally this is the most expensive setup.

Not sure which set up Subaru, BME or Porsche uses. Regardless, the feel in newer Porsche's is shit compared to the last generation.


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You should try a 987 Cayman... even better car (better steering, better engine note, better interior, etc etc). I'm not a fan of PDK, but that's certainly better in the 981 than it was in the early 987s-- faster, smoother shifts. I'm not a fan of those new interiors though (too many buttons, kind of tacky materials, doors sound flimsier when they close, etc) or the new engine sound (too many artificial pops and growls, not enough howling at the top end). Can't comment on the steering feel as I haven't driven the 981 (was just a passenger for an evening), but everyone I've talked to who's driven both says that the 981/991 steering feel is garbage compared to their older cars (even the 991 GT3, which is said to feel better than their other electric racks).

The first time I test drove a 981, I felt it was faster than my 987(s). And, that the engine was much more willing to rev and felt more powerful while doing it. But I thought the EPS was shit, numb and not near as communicative as my 987.


Second test drive was pretty much the same. I loved the acceleration and the rev happy nature of the car. My 987 was close but felt lacking after the test drive. "Oh well", I thought, "my steering is superior".


Then I rode and drove one at a small track. I fell in love with it. My 987 felt lacking in many ways after that. Now, we are talking small differences....but I knew there were definite improvements that my car didn't have. I still thought the steering was kind of numb, but lap times didn't lie. I was much faster in the 981, despite the fact that I had more seat time in my 987.


So I picked up a 981. I would say within 60 days my problem with the EPS was nil. I love the steering of the 981 now. I know exactly what the car is doing, we talk to each other perfectly. I still spend some time in 987s, but I am thrilled with my 981 and I don't miss my 987(s) at all. Okay , sometimes I miss my '06 cause it had a TPC turbo kit on it. But that's not a fair comparison.


Another fun tidbit I noticed after driving the 981 for the last 5 months. I loved my 987(s) on the track and it was fun on the roads. But I didn't have as much fun in my 987 just driving it around town. I preferred my BRZ. It was fun at just about any speed. I think most would agree. Now, I don't know how Porsche made the 981 more fun to drive at sane speeds than my old 987. I mean the car is smoother and technically more refined, how could this be. I don't know, maybe its the seating position. Maybe its the lower front cowl. I don't know, but what I do know is that I get a greater sense of speed(fun) in my 981 than I did my 987.


Another observation. While my wife and I usually AX together, she would take the 987 and I was in my BRZ. While in my BRZ I never missed my 987. But I was 50/50 split on the 981/BRZ. So I guess you could say I enjoy the 981 and BRZ more than I enjoyed either of my 987(s) sans turbo kit.


ANyways, that's my two cents. The 981 chassis is fracking superior to the 987. However, it would be interesting to put a hydraulic unit on the 981. Best of both worlds. But I wont be the guinea pig.


In the end, my thought is the steering of the 981 is something that you will hate on test drives. You wont get over it till at least 60 days of ownership, maybe less. But once you bond with the car it is a fantastic machine. I have never hopped in a car and been able to heel-toe so easily. I am not advocating EPS, but I now don't feel its a problem on my 981 in anyway. It just takes time.

Nice write-up! Good to hear from someone who's owned all three platforms (981, 987, Twins). I used to have a 987.2 Boxster S and think about going back someday, but the new 981 is definitely enticing too. Glad you're enjoying the new one. Performance and driving feel aside, I think most people would agree they look better than the 987's. :wub:

Interesting. I have driven a 981, and to me it wins decisively over the FRS in terms of fun (though not by a big margin, and my MR2 Spyder was more fun than the Porsche, but even more lacking than the FRS in refinement). I assumed a 987 would be pretty nice with the shorter wheelbase, so I strongly considered getting a used one, but I decided to just get an FRS to save some money and so I could get a slightly newer model year car.

I feel like there's definitely something to be said for how Porsche makes a reasonably nice riding, quiet car, that also has a fantastic engine note and tight chassis feel, and I haven't even sat in a PASM equipped car yet.

Did you option out your 981 with the active rear differential? From what I've read that's the only thing that gives it an advantage over the 987 (dynamically speaking). It has a longer wheelbase for stability, and the active differential to negate the loss in nimbleness.

As to steering, sure you get used to it and like it; it's conditioning. It's just like people that stop drinking regular Coke and stick with Diet Coke. And then tell you they enjoy Diet Coke more than Coke... :lol:

I agree completely. Its adaptation and conditioning. But if you take money out of the equation, I would 100% prefer the 981S. Now with money in the equation, a used 987 is a very compelling argument. In answer to an earlier question...no, I do not have PTV (torque vectoring). In fact my 981S has no options whatsoever except 20in wheels. I have changed brake fluid and installed a short shift kit. My 981 was a demo that was the cheapest car on the Porsche lot. I got a great deal and they were fair with my 3 trade in vehicles. But I can honestly say that I have zero buyers remorse. I really am that happy with my purchase. Of course , other guys in my local PCA feel like I settled. So I don't know if the 981 is the answer for everyone, but it was for me. Only took me 5 years and about 10 damn cars to find the right car. Yes I am moron, but I have learned a lot in my journey.


But I still love the BRZ/FRS(maybe even a touch more than my P-cars) for one giant reason. I can't really work on my 987/981s, but I can do everything on my BRZ/FRS except alignment. Cars I can work on, I always have a special bond with. My BRZs (and S2000 for that matter) are like my wife who I really take care of and listen too. My P-cars are like my hot girlfriend who is always fun and I just buy nice (expensive)things for her.



Anyways, that sums up my thoughts.

Just out of curiousity, but why don't/can't you work on your Porsche? Given that it has a factory warranty, I can understand there's no need for you to work on the car anyway. Or are you talking about performing aftermarket modifications?

I'm no mechanical expert, but I've done my fair share of mechanical maintenance/repairs to my 987 in the two years I've owned her, with just instructional guidance found on the Porsche forums.

sidebar: My car is also a bit of a stripper! My car has 2 options: Sport Chrono and painted wheel center crests, haha.

Well it comes down to facilities and equipment. Yes I want to be able to do aftermarket mods to my car, along with continue my education (and I am still very green) of tuning fundamentals. A BRZ, you can tune to your hearts content. Changing out suspension components, no problem. Hell pulling the engine, you just need time and an engine hoist.


But with our mid engine beauties you need a proper lift, and then a secondary lift (transmission or otherwise) to drop the engine assembly. Which you and I both know means pulling out( or down) the engine, tranny and entire rear suspension assy as a whole unit. Its beautiful, but not something I take lightly or can do in my garage.


The pricepoint: if I screw up my BRZ and open a can of worms, I wont cry. But on the Porsche, yeah I might just cry. I mean bleeding the brakes, changing pads or oil changes are doable.....but without a doubt the BRZ (Miata, S2000, Corvette, Camaro) are all much easier to work on than my 987s were.


My 987s were also strippers with only the Sport Chrono package. It is a must for 987s. Luckily on the 981s you get sport mode standard on the car. My car is always in sport mode, but on the 981s I feel that sport plus mode is twitchy (of course I have only driven a PDK in sport plus mode), so I don't miss the sport chrono on it.
But if you have a 987, I highly suggest the sport chrono option.


Anyways, I hope that all makes sense. Other than that the only reason I can give to you all about why I wont attempt to do more work on my P-cars is.....




I'm a pansy. :)


Besides if I broke the Porsche my wife would kick my ass.