My bucket list:

http://news.boldride.com/wp-content/...-2028x1428.jpg

-alex

Wow, are all those tracks on the same scale? I had no idea the Isle of Man course was that big.

Beauty list and great image! but unless your last name is Branson or Zuckerberg....


Checking Mosport GP track off my list in a few weeks! I know to some its no big deal... but I've been running it on the PC for over 10 years, finally! get to do it for real.

yes @gramicci101 it's all to scale. Hence the absurdness of it.

-alex

That is what's taught but like mike I give up the line as well. I don't need to be on it and would rather let the faster guy keep moving at pace. It's not unsafe if both drivers have half a brain.

I wouldn't move off line unless I knew and trusted the driver about to pass me, but otherwise I agree.

I've discovered the flaw in your theory.

Anyone in advanced or even a higher intermediate driver should meet that qualification.


I wouldn't do that in Green since it would confuse a new driver. Anyone with experience has no issues with this.


People wanting a fake race environment should just do W2W racing instead of using an HPDE as a fake race passing scenario (not talking about you).

Oh, don't worry about me. I use Forza for my fake racing experience. Using my actual car (only car) is too much of a risk for me.

Reminds me of this gem from yesterday:

http://gfycat.com/OldfashionedHastyAmazontreeboa

[ame="https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=glaP1oBJWao"]Project CARS - Weird Glitch - YouTube[/ame]

Here's two videos from last weekend that are even better:

944 executing the "Point, then punch it" technique (Advanced Group)
https://youtu.be/thO9rsAAM9Q

Clueless 911 driver (Intermediate Group)
https://youtu.be/J-uvGhZ5Xgk

To add to that, even in open passing, I will point the guy by, well ahead of time so they know that I have acknowledged them and that's why I'm off line. If I don't have time or the area of the track prevents that, I will hold my line to not cause confusion.

I have seen many a racing accident where I wish the drivers remembered two feet in. It is still the best way to be predictable for anyone that is following you as you spin/crash.

I actually think this is part of the problem. Damn near everyone has timing devices in their cars now even in damn DE1 sessions. There are sessions and run groups for setting fast laps, but DE sessions are not meant for that. If someone is on a fast lap or what they think is a fast lap they are not going to want to lift to let a BRZ/FR-S by. They will say to themselves, I will point by and then assume he didn't want it as I floor the throttle.

but you just described the problem I pointed out in my video:

if you are doing a point-by, you have to help facilitate the passing. If you are doing a point-by, you are pointing by a faster car or someone who is obviously catching up to you in other sections of the track.

To do a point-by and still drive 10/10ths is not a proper point-by technique. All the other stuff about setting fast lap times is moot, I have no problem pointing by someone even when I'm on a flying lap and letting them pass.

-alex

You missed my point. When you have drivers looking to set laptimes instead of caring about watching their mirrors and executing proper point byes in a DE situation, then this is what can occur. He obviously knew you weren't going to pass him without lifting, and that way he got to finish his lap and set his laptime. I am not saying everyone does this, but I am saying that having the timing devices is part of the issue.

If you've given a point, you've already given up your hot lap.

I understand your point and I think we are talking about two different things...

You are saying that timing devices and a desire to run "as fast as possible" contributes to poor passing/point-by ettiquette at the track.

I am saying that this type of point-by (as denoted by my video clip) is not how you should execute a point-by if you are already pointing by someone to let them pass you.

I should post the entire video from my session as a counter to your point, because I spent the rest of the session catching up to him in corners. I had to drive purposely slower as a result in several sections.

Our run group was advanced w/ point-by passing. This is not how you do point-by passing, nor should I (the passer) be the one asking the car in front of me for a pass/point-by.

-alex

I agree that it's a problem, but not related to the point by issue.


I've helped friends from the pass seat with less experience and the second a lap timer is installed they push it harder and harder and quickly run out of talent.

Yeah I provide early point bys as well, so early that many of the older PCA guys can't even see it - or simply choose to wait.. not sure which.

Pointing by and staying online is great, unless the passing car leaves you hanging.....
[ame]http://youtu.be/LwhDXPXqEdk[/ame]

We work hard in our group to teach and promote better passing. Some don't care or don't realize they have more to learn.

Anyone ever get black flagged for trying to take a point-by where the driver didn't lift? I had this issue my last track day running with a club that only allowed point-bys on certain straights.

- I catch up to a Miata entering a corner and stay close to signal I want a point-by.
- He gives the point-by at the start of a short (1/6 mile) straight following the corner.
- I go off-line to take it, but he doesn't lift.
- By the end of the straight, we are side-by-side entering an 80 mph turn (and me off-line on the inside).
- I can slow down to tuck behind him before the corner, but that may create more confusion.
- Normally in a pass-anywhere group I would complete the pass on the inside on corner entry, so I do that.
- Black flag (first time ever!). I explain that the Miata didn't lift, which led to us being side-by-side into the corner.
- After getting released from the pit, I just happen to come up on the same Miata in the same corner. Literally the exact same situation. I think to myself this time he will surely lift.
- Halfway down the straight I realize he is not going to lift.
- Groundhog day. Again, I don't want to hit my brakes before the corner as it would create confusion, so I complete the pass on corner entry. Black flag redux. WTF.

I will say that the Miata driver didn't seem to mind me passing on corner-entry and it seemed to work out ok given the short straight. It is a bit nerve-wracking though to try entering a high-speed corner off-line for the first time with another car directly to your side. The biggest question is whether there is enough space in front of the other car to commit to a corner speed that would necessitate a full track-out.

I had something just as awesome happen in project cars. Got a little loose mid corner and as I was straightening out it rolled (while going straight), then flew up way in the air and just hovered spinning.

With any of the groups I've worked with up here, it's the passing cars responsibility to complete the pass before the passing zone ends. We typically have double cones to start and triple cones to end so there's no confusion.

If you can't complete the pass before the passing zone ends, it's your job to fall back behind the car you were passing.

If it were up to me, the miata would've been black flagged as well for pointing you by then not allowing the pass.

Very interesting to hear a different perspective/take on it. Here, there's no instruction that if the other car doesn't lift before the end of the passing zone, you should slow down and tuck behind him (that I can remember).

One thing class instructors will harp on is don't change your mind on hand gestures. So if you give a pit signal, don't change your mind and pull back onto the track. In my mind at least, another application would be, if someone gives you a point-by and you move off line to take it and don't wave it off, then you shouldn't change your mind halfway through the maneuver and try to tuck back behind him.

It does make me want to clarify what the correct rule is. The way I see it, if you've already pulled alongside or nosed in front of the car being overtaken, it would be dangerous to brake and attempt to tuck back behind him before a turn.

I would suggest it's way more dangerous to enter a turn off line, side by side, than to brake and fall in line behind them.

That said, you should know WELL ahead of the corner if you're going to make the pass or not. No one should be making that decision at the turn in point.

That is your problem right there.. you are assuming A, Miata driver is assuming B, and the track host/course workers are looking at a couple of drivers driving like idiots (to them).

While it is counter-productive to assign blame, I'd say the primary responsibility falls on the track host to communicate passing rules clearly. Then, it falls on the passing car to ensure a safe pass of the passed (?) car.

I think any competent track host will clearly outline the passing rules in the morning driver's meeting. If they don't, do everyone a favor and bring it up before the track goes hot, otherwise your guess is as good as the other person's.

-alex

On a short straight (1/6 mile), it requires trust that the driver being overtaken will lift. If he doesn't, the straight is so short that by the time you realize (as the overtaking driver) that he's really not going to lift, you're already at the braking zone.

You can never completely predict what the other driver will do, which is why I think it's stupid to black flag the overtaking driver in that scenario. If you're the driver giving a point-by on a short straight, the main responsibility should be on you to make the point-by happen by lifting once the other driver has chosen to take the pass. That's the only way a complete pass will happen on a short straight between cars within, say, 150 hp of each other. It's not like the overtaking driver can will his car to be faster, but the overtaken driver quite easily has the power to lift (and is in the best position to make the pass happen safely).

Yeah I agree it's important to discuss this scenario during the driver's meeting or classroom.

Do appreciate the feedback everyone!

@mav1178 is spot on, but I'll chime in anyway

I've only been with two groups, one uptight (Hooked On Driving) and one that was scary lax (the C7 horror vid could have taken place with them). At the uptight one, I would have absolutely fallen back, they were very serious about it being a controlled environment and taking zero risks, I think it was explicitly stated to fall back in that scenario.

I carried that attitude to the lax group and stuck by it until a few minutes into the second session I was given a vigorous point by in the middle of turn 2 at Laguna... by an instructor... In a beginner's group...
:eyebulge:
I mean, we were bunched up and so far off the pace the only danger was getting rear ended but still, it changed my perspective on the group, I just went for it from then on, not full on racing but sometimes it came down to knowing I was braking so much later that the pass wasn't a challenge even though we were side by side until the brakes went on.

I'm not too fond of that group.

Hard to KNOW when a point by pass turns into a drag race, happens a lot in an 86 with other beginner/intermediate drivers in 'Vettes Porsche's M's Mustangs etc. don't realize how much they have to back off to give the little guys a clean pass. It should be decided before the brakes get applied that's for certain.

Haha excuse my awful MS Paint skills, but this is roughly the scenario I'm describing:

https://farm4.staticflickr.com/3822/...2b04a06d_b.jpg

What ends up happening is I hug the inside line. Miata is on my rear 3/4 panel at the start of the brake zone, and tucks in behind me between the turn-in point and apex of T3. Seeing him behind me, I track out fully on exit. Black flag.

The blame is definitely on the driver that didn't lift as a starting point, but as the driver taking the pass it's your responsibilty to ensure you get the pass done in the passing zone safely.

It should be pretty clear well before a passing zone is over that you aren't going to make the pass.

As for tight passing zones... there are 6 passing zones on this track (2.8km, 1.75miles):
2-3
5-6
10-11
11-12
15-17
17-1
http://www.1addicts.com/forums/attac...2&d=1400550337

I agree as a general rule, it is the overtaking driver's responsibility to make sure the pass is done safely. Which is why I have a hang-up with this because intuitively there seems to be something very unsafe about getting halfway or more through a pass and suddenly backing out right before a braking zone. I can't shake the feeling that it would be dangerous/confusing for the driver being overtaken.

I know when I'm the driver giving a point-by, if there is no wave-off, my expectation is there will be a pass on the side I give the point-by. Especially if I see the other car pull alongside.

Maybe it's the right thing to do and I just need to trust the other driver will know I changed my mind in the middle of the pass, but definitely makes me uneasy thinking about it.

all this can be avoided if the track host can set clear rules about passing zones and using best judgment.

Why are you (the driver) making these judgments or assumptions while you are on the track? If it's a regular open-track day, passing rules should be agreed and adhered to before you even drive onto the pit lane.

Frankly I see it as all parties being at fault here: the track host for poor passing rules, you for assuming the Miata will let you pass, and the Miata for assuming you can pass/are able to pass with a slow car.

-alex

If the car giving the point by does not facilitate the pass then things become unclear, in my post I state an example where I was getting a point by in a corner, clearly not a designated passing zone by an "instructor".

It's a good thing that things are cut and dry at your events but @DarkSunrise and I have encountered HPDE Groups where it's as clear as mud. Especially when the car offering the point by insists or is confused by the passing car backing out due to safety concerns and EXPECTS to be passed while on the brakes as they back out even further midcorner and cause further confusion and danger than if the pass had just been taken as if we were racing.

In hindsight we both should have backed off and tried again at the next appropriate opportunity or distanced ourselves from the difficult driver, in the heat of the moment obvious solutions are not obvious.

Edit: We are searching for advice on what we can control, ourselves, not critiques on other drivers or organizers.

Rule of thumb:

If you trailered your car to the track, you can do whatever you want as long as you can pay for it.

If you drove your car to the track, you can do whatever you want as long as you can pay for it.

Is a pass under normal track, non-racing conditions that may cause an accident from a misunderstanding worth the expense? The answer is obvious.

And it doesn't matter if there is a point-by or not... I was given a point-by and not given a chance to pass. Could I have in the next corner or two? Sure.. but I like to enjoy my car, not be frustrated at others on the track.

-alex

What should have been done is to
1) back off and not be put in a black flag situation
2) make a point to let the organizer know what happened on the track
3) talk to the other driver to see if that person understood the rules or what had transpired
4) don't put yourself in future situations where there is little/no room for error

-alex

BTW I should clarify it is taught in our classroom sessions that a driver giving a point-by should lift to facilitate the pass.

I've also had similar situations come up twice when I used to have an instructor, although the result of late point-bys rather than failures to lift. Typically they would instruct to take a little more speed off entry, stay on the inside line, then track out if clear. So it may just be a different passing rule for the local groups that I run with.

Definitely will make it a point to have it clarified during future classroom sessions though, as I think that's the best approach.