If you spend money, on anything, you don't have it anymore. Therefore, it is lost. That was easy.

Did somebody mention "Halo car"?

Nice Puma.

Why so surprised about the dropping sales of the 86? Don't all Japanese sports cars comes and go? God bless America for the wide open roads and cheap horse power!

I'm sure Toyota/Subaru did their homework and knew exactly how this car will go. That's why there's not a whole lot of trims. Especially in the power department. Why bother spending a huge amount on R&D for different trims for a model that's expected to last no longer than a decade.

I'm happy to own and experience the 86 as it is. Can't really ask for more. Its got the look and hugs corners like that of a Porsche. The feeling of gliding through those tight corners and not having to worry much on braking wet my pants every time (in a good way).

No doubt the 86 will go the way of the dodo eventually. However, I'm sure it will leave its mark as one of the best Japanese light weight RWD sports car of all time.

What in sam hell is a Puma?!

Why do people work so hard to find faults with this car? The people who actually love the thing are a small minority, with the rest either hating the car or never actually driving the thing because it's in pieces in the garage.

People love to bitch.

Personally, I love my car. It would have been fine the way it left the factory, but I'm making better by modding it.

A big cat with a vast range, the adaptable cougar (Puma concolor) is found across a variety of habitats. The New World mammal is recognized as six distinct subspecies (with a possible seventh in Florida). Five inhabit Latin America. The sixth lives in North America, including in the hills of Los Angeles, the second most populous city in the United States

Or...

The vehicle from the game Halo pictured above.

Well said....F'k all the other muscle cars! LmaO!:lol:

Sigh. You need to watch Red vs. Blue, Season 1, Episode 2. It's five minutes long, you should look it up.

But I agree that it doesn't look like a Warthog and is named wrong!

But what about the two towhooks? They look like tusks.

Like a Walrus

Edit: I'd go gay for Geoff Ramsey.

Fixed. This is how it applies to me! :word:

After three years with the FR-S/86, my original reasons for buying the car have held true.
Despite the selling of this car as a track and drifting car, my priorities are different.
The things that really matter to me are four things.

1) RWD: It reminds me every moment (after years with sporty front wheel drive cars): how great rear-wheel-drive is. The car communicates with the front and the rear, without fucking it up by trying to combine them both, or by adding AWD.

2) MT: Less than 5% of cars sold are manuals. I feel like I am driving a sofa everytime I drive an automatic.

3) Precise Steering: Even the best sporty hatches or expensive sedans telegraph the steering to you. Not so in the FR-S. You sense the steering through your hands, and you feel the reaction of the steering even before you see it.

4) Lightweight: Even small cars are heavy these days, and the fancy suspension systems on many cars make car feel ponderous and remote. Even the best sporty sedans may react quickly but it feels unreal and computer-aided.

I remember what fighter pilots said when jets started using sophisticated avionics to help fly increasingly complex airplanes. They lamented that the F4 Phantom was the last pure "piloted plane". Sometimes I think that the 86 may be one of the last "driven" cars. Despite its lack of power, I would rather have the 86 than a Ferrari with its dual clutch automatic, or the GT-R with its computer aided launch algorithm.

Just wondering, if the OP thinks an affordable RWB sports coupe is a money loser, what does that make the Camaro, Challenger and especially the Mustang now that it has independent rear suspension? Call them muscle cars but once you get an IRS you all of a sudden have a track car.

-RyanG

Small Brazilian sports car.

http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedi...Puma_500px.jpg

Since this is a thread about lightweight rwd cars, I thought vw puma:

http://wj2d.100megsdns.com/lomral.jpg

... or the vehicle from halo :iono:

Auto Mfgs have goals for each model outside of straight sales volume. Some are Halo cars, others are line-up fillers, or market exploration, etc etc.

Here's an example, guess what car is going to be refreshed for 2016?

The Honda CR-Z
http://www.newcarnewsandreviews.com/2016-honda-cr-z/

Built on the Civic platform this time around. Honda still recognizes having a small sporty coupe as essential to their lineup. Look at the sales volume numbers below. Guess what, the twins absolutely destroy these sales numbers. So it doesn't matter what a journalist or some random forum poster believe a MFGs goals to be. If the MFG says they're making a 2nd gen car, they're probably going to make it.

Honda CR-Z Sales numbers through 2014 copypasta
2010
August - 694 (7 selling days)
September - 1236
October - 1419
November - 1024
December - 876
Total sold during 2010: 5,249

2011
January - 894
February - 1091
March - 1,685
April - 1,819
May. - 1557
June - 996
July - 878
August - 745
September - 537
October - 289
November - 305
December - 564
TOTAL sold during 2011: 11,360

2012
January - 363
February - 466
March - 536
April - 334
May - 296
June - 409
July - 330
August - 392
September - 335
October - 244
November - 244
December - 243
Total CRZs sold during 2012: 4,192

2013
January - 358
February - 381
March - 451
April - 405
May - 427
June - 393
July - 384
August - 483
September - 264
October - 325
November - 295
December - 384
Total CRZs sold during 2013: 4,550

2014
January - 267
February - 318
March - 354
April - 369
May - 389
June - 302
July - 356
August - 342
September - 248
October - 205
November - 188
December -
Total CRZs sold during 2014: 3,338

TOTAL CRZs sold since introduction: 28,689

I think you bring up a great point. The CR-Z is getting refreshed in the US without the hybrid drivetrain. In this case, they listened to what enthusiasts wanted. Will Toyota/Subaru listen to the market in the US and release the second gen FR-S/BRZ with more power or at least give the consumer that option?

3 pages and nobody points out the actual economic function of the car?

This car, by economic definition, is a "LOSS LEADER". It's intended solely as a tool of brand imaging, a lure to the brand and the showrooms. It improves brand loyalty and repeat purchasers. Ironically the Corvette was intended to be the same exact thing for GM but people ended up buying so many that eventually the Corvette (an intended loss-leader) became a profitable loss-leader if you will: benefits of a loss leader whilst generating a profit in itself.

Usually on products of this intention, breaking even on the manufacturing cost is a huge win because of the residual economic benefit the company will realize from its existence.

Calling a CRZ a sporty anything is just wrong. That thing can't even get out of its own way.

That's pretty much the point I just made :)

Yeahhhhh I don't think so. Most Mustang drivers care about power and speed. They are more concerned with times at the drag strip and street racing than handling.

I wouldn't go that far having been to many auto-xs and living with someone who had a pretty quick Mustang in the corners. It caught a good many people by surprise down in New Orleans auto-x meets because everyone still has this notion stuck in their head that American cars can still only drive straight.

I know. But I did a CTRL F search for "Loss leader" and after not seeing those words specifically I just ran with it. :D

You stated it more clearly than I did anyhow.
:respekt:

Earning a big ol BLACK DOT in Consumer Reports Reliability column has to hurt a lot.

I think the issue is crickets. Me? I don't have crickets and the thing is reliable as if subaru and toyota built a car together.

If Jeep built the Warthog, the buyers would be there. I'm surprised they haven't done it already, or maybe Polaris as a 4-wheeler.

I just posted this in the FRS/BRZ sales figure thread, but figured I'd cross post it here since the discussion has turned to sales numbers, and some info on the Corvette.

Through March, Chevrolet has sold 44,674 of the C7 Corvettes in the US and Canada since its introduction last year and 8,517 this calendar year, almost as many as the total global sales of the FR-S since introduction.

Overall, according to this chart, the FR-S is #91 in sales in the US for this year, with decrease of 28.6% over 2014.

The BRZ is #111 with a decrease of 43.9% over last year's sales.

And since they are mentioned on this forum all the time the new Mustang (#20) has boosted sales by 52% but that will fall off, and does appear to be hurting #32 Camaro sales, which are down 11% for the year.

That all spells to me that if the 86 will make it to Gen2 they do need to do a mid-cycle refresh, and soon.

Chevy has sold over 64K C7 vettes worldwide since its indroduction.

It being "affordable" is debatable but I can say this Chevy listened to its critics of the vette and addressed the concerns. Greatly improved interior, better suspensions and handling, and better transmissions.

Seems that Chevy realizes if you give people what they are asking for then people will buy their products.

Now if Toyota and Subaru will quit adding overpriced cosmetics to the twins and address the things people and critics are asking for maybe sales of the twins would pick up? :iono:

It only took them 50+ years. :thumbup:

The difference is that I cannot show up to HERTZ or Enterprise and rent a BRZ or FRS.

Unfortunately we don't get to see the non-fleet sales figures for the Mustang or Camaro.

Don't forget, the Corvette has over 60 years of brand awareness going for it.

Multiple generations have admired, critiqued, loved, hated, desired the car depending on which model year you are talking about. It is an "iconic" car for all of those reasons.

So, now they have started to make it both relatively affordable AND have fantastic performance to boot, it's not a surprise that they are selling a boatload.

The GT-86/FRS/BRZ have been around for 3 years now. That's a lot of ground to make up. Ignoring the mixed marketing message of the three brands, the twins still have a lot of ground to make up.

If Toyota/Subaru stay committed to the platform then the GT86 will evolve to meet the needs of the market.

Not sure I understand the point you are trying to make. I would imagine fleet sales of Mustang and Camaro is a small percentage of the overall sales figure.

Obviously, Chevy/Ford's willingness to sell a range of submodels definitely helps in the numbers.

I would argue otherwise but unfortunately neither one of us can know if we're right or wrong because GM/Ford won't delineate between fleet and non fleet. Just like Honda just lists "Civic" and not trim level sales figures so it's hard to know how many "Si's" have sold. Hyundai is the same with the Genesis, they don't differentiate between the coupe and sedan in the sales numbers.

The point of the fleet sales ensures the car is out of the territory of loss-leader as the unit volume is such that it's a profitable platform in and of itself.

Maybe Toyota/Subaru should consider this option. I know for sure that if I was on business trip I would rent sports car instead of Ford Fusion.. unless, that is, I had to chauffeur a client around.

Starting this year, allocation of frs seems low compared to last year.
We only get few each month but boy they still sell.

CAUTION: Pure speculation ahead using suspect data from the Internet!

True I suppose, but all those rentals do eventually end up in private hands, normally in less than 12 months to 24 months, so I'm not sure how much it matters between fleet and non-fleet from an original sales prospective. If anything the resale of low mileage fleet cars hurts the sale of new cars. I would buy a fleet car over a new car, and have done that in the past.

Here's what we can do to tell how much of the fleet it is. Hertz Sales lists 9,603 cars for sale within 500 miles of my location (that is the widest it lets you go). That does cover some of the larger markets where Hertz rents these types of cars though (Atlanta/Florida)

Of those 9,603 cars 9 are Camaros and 28 are Mustangs, including 1 Penske Mustang.

So, at least today, Camaros represent 0.09% of the Hertz retiring fleet in my area and Mustangs represent 0.29%. I would hazard to guess, and that is all it is, that Mustangs are higher because they want to move to the new model.

Hertz does use a combination of sales and returns so I suppose it could be that they return more pony cars to the manufacturers then they sell.

But, on the surface at least, it would appear the cars represent a pretty small part of the 350,000 cars that Hertz buys in a year. Even if my projection is off by a factor of 10 it would only be a couple thousand cars per model. Given the Camaro averaged about 7,100 sales a month for the past 12 months in the US, and Ford is about the same, I'd maintain its a pretty small percentage of all sales.

That is, admittedly, a significant extrapolation from a very limited sample (aka; 1).

There's also enterprise, thrifty, budget, avis, dollar rental etc; that all offer a mustang (or at least googling suggests they do).

Some googling also points to the fact that the V6 Mustang exists specifically for the fleet market segment even though it is available through retail (and improved over the last few years).

But, nonetheless... None of this means anything when discussing the principle of a "loss leader" in a thread titled: has the affordable RWD sports car become a money loser...over the last 60 years is that most affordable RWD sports cars were mostly intended to be loss-leaders.

The answer is NO. The car itself may not be profitable (with few exceptions) but a non-profitable affordable, rwd sports car can still lift margins for the company or the brand as a whole. The fact that Subaru/Toyota have one, Mazda is making a new Miata, Hyundai has one, Kia has been toying with one, Ford/Chevy has always had one and Nissan/Infiniti both support the platform suggests that an attainable RWD sports car is still financial benefit to the brand as a whole. Scion/Subaru/Toyota have also stated that the 86 is selling above targets, so it's hard to see doom an gloom when the manufacturer of the car says, "Well it's doing better than we planned on!"

This loss-leader model also applies to some super cars. The LFA is a massive loss on every sale for example. Heck it even applies in other industries... How many years did Amazon operate before turning a profit? How many Xbox 360s did MS sell and for how many years at a loss on each unit before that department became profitable (answer: lots). Ink-Jet printers are another example: sell the unit at no-margin or even a loss and make money on ink.

Not a money loser if Toyota/Lexus continue to use this 86 chassis in future cars. They will recoup the invested R&D and save money with the future cars.