I never considered the BRZ....the FRS was the only choice of the 2 to me....its styling inside and out is what i prefer even its neutral balance over the BRZ's more understeer.Even the V6 Mustang the other car im considering it will be the base model with sync and recaro's i dont need disco ball interior colors and silly track apts i prefer cloth to leather.Besides when i look in my garage i want a Toyota sitting next to my Supra not Subie,my wife is in the Army an that $1k rebate definetly helps and the way Scion supports the military we have a 9 year old and she's been to Iraq twice so that means something to both of us.HID's and Steeringweel controls with Sirrus/XM would be nice but the FRS is nearly perfect to me its a very high quality built car in my eyes much more than i ever could have imagined...

i got the FR-S, and probably if the BRZ was more available i would of purchased it.
i had never owned a subie , but i have had good luck with Toyota. in the end, its brand over goodies... hard to say but after driving my new one for 120miles, i have no regrets - there is always something better but the FRS by itself is nice.

the stereo isnt that bad actually, and i did drive the BRZ-Base before and i didnt like the radio on that one - it was actually weaker and when i checked it was something like 190W instead of the scion 330W.... so, tit-for-tat but cant go wrong with either :)

http://static.dealer.com/v8/global/i...3-coupe_01.jpg

128i with the M packadge. That picture you found is ugly lol. I'd also rather go with the FR-S. But if you're going to be spending in the 30's already is why I mentioned the 128i.

I gotcha. I plan on trying to get a stock stereo for the FR-S and then upgrading to something with a link to my phone. Which will be much better than any stock nav system and about 1/4th the cost overall.

Looks are subjective, but I think the 1 series is one of the ugliest cars ever made. That being said, I just built up a 128i with convenience package (HIDs, push button start), cold weather package (heated seats, leather), and M sport package, and the MSRP is $38,315. It actually makes the BRZ limited seem like a pretty great deal.

Yeah, I didn't add in the cold weather package and some of the other stuff. Left it at M package and individually added the keyless. But won't be paying MSRP(not getting one just saying). I'd still rather have the BRZ/FRS.

I guess I'm "old school". I look at more options (heated mirrors, really?) as more things to break and more money to fix.

Ultra-minimalist and proud! :)

(I would rock the fog lights though)

I know you were in the Scion vs Toyota thread, you saw my posts and stance lol.

Personally, yes the BRZ is the better deal but I'm Toyota fan through and through so I won't go that route. If you don't have loyalty to a badge and you like features, then the BRZ is the current route to go.

As others have mentioned, it's going to be a wait for the Subaru though. If you're willing to wait, do so, you'll only end up regretting settling for less than what you wanted in the end otherwise.

Shameless plug: Also, if you're willing to wait, might as well message Toyota that you want to see those options as you know they're available in other parts of the world. They do take what their customers say into account. Head over to Toyota.com, Toyota.ca, Scion.com, Scion.ca and use their "Contact Us" buttons at the bottom of their pages, in small print, and let them know. Be heard.

I think that the FR-S is the way to go for the budget concious.. but also for people who want to keep their cars awhile.. Having a car that can be upgraded or modified is a good thing.. Yeah.. i want to make mine more upscale.. so should i buy a BMW or Audi? Well i guess i could.. but the "fun" for me is making my car they way I want it.. not concerned with how much is spent at what time.. I'll do it slowly over time..thus keeping the car as fresh and interesting as possible.. Plus its always nice to have a car that people think of in one way.. only on closer inspection.. to see something unexpected.. make sense??

Bristecom, from what you said, the choice sounds obvious. The add-ons are what you want, and worth the money. So go for the BRZ! Have you even driven both yet to know which suspension setup you prefer? How do you know you'd even be able to tell the difference unless you were going 9/10ths out on a race track? Besides, the only difference in suspension between the two are in the springs and struts. If you plan on lowering the car, the subtle differences will go out the window when you change the springs and/or struts. And you could always swap the front bumper for an FR-S bumper if the BRZ front end really bothers you. I recommend just getting it in a darker color as it hides the "mustache" better.

I had the opposite thought. I don't really care about things like leather seats and auto climate control now, but a few years from now I might wish that I got them. I plan on keeping the car for a long time so I'd rather get these options now in case I want them later, since they are things I can't add myself. For $3000 more it was an easy decision for me. I was actually debating between the FR-S and BRZ Premium for a while but everyone I showed pics of the limited interior to and said it's only $2000 more was like "and you're thinking about this why?"

"Same principle as a condom, better to have it and not need it than to need it and not have it."

I think its great whichever one you buy.. lol Thats what is so great.. we can all get what we want lol :)

With exception to the people who want the Toyota GT 86 Limited you mean... we can't get what we want unless we move to another country.

I don't particularly have loyalty in this case. I like both companies equally; Subaru with their boxer engines and rally heritage, and Toyota with their beautiful Supra, AWD Celica, and MR2 of the 90's. But the styling of the Scion appears more striking to me vs. the blander looking Subaru.

LOL, I did in fact go ahead and send Scion a message even though I knew it would be fruitless. And sure enough the response was something like, "Scion does not offer options other than in the Release Series. Thank you." :thumbdown:

Well I've only driven the FR-S so far but the rear comes around so easy! From what I've heard, the Subaru doesn't come around that easy so it may not be as fun on the road to me. But I would like to drive one to compare, although I probably won't get the chance for a while since they aren't available.

I considered doing the swap on the BRZ but that would still involve replacing the headlamps and all the frontal lamps/lights and rewiring/remounting them, replacing the fenders, replacing the dash (yes, I like the fake carbon fiber!), replacing the shift knob (red stitching), removing the spoiler (do not like), and replacing the tachometer/display.

Yeah, if I didn't plan to change anything, I would probably get either blue or the DGM/black color. But red is my favorite color and I've always had red sports cars and motorcycles. So yeah, it still looks like getting the FR-S and then upgrading the heck out of it is the better option...

Heated mirrors are for defogging/defrosting them so you can still use them in the winter or early morning.

NathanR, try living up here where you get snow and ice often. The heated mirrors come in handy.

Where is the data that backs this up? Judging by the fact that the whole industry, other than luxury models, has gone to trims instead of stand alone options tells me that you are wrong.

Again, Scion has always been mono spec. Making a low and high trim goes against the mono spec business plan and creates confusion and competition between Scion and Subaru. If you absolutely have to have all the extra options, the RS will probably take care of most of it. The RS tC got push button start over the regular tC, for example.

You need data? If you sell something extra, you can mark it up a little, giving you more profit. I thought that was just common sense.

Toyota is basically competing with Subaru on the same level everywhere else in the world. They are both unique enough to compete while still benefiting both companies regardless. It's a win-win.

Perhaps they should have offered a higher trim as a Toyota in the US while making the Scion even cheaper like the base model in Japan. And it sounds like the Release Series will only be available in one unique color which will limit the appeal.

It's just, when I spend 26-30k dollars on something, I want it to be exactly what I want and to know my money was well spent. Frankly, I'm surprised at how many people compromise when it comes to cars. But I guess most of those people plan to sell them every few years anyway.

It stills costs money to offer that additional option. A $28k FR-S might be lot-rot on a Scion floorplan. If no one is willing to spend the money on the option, it reduces the profitability of the vehicle because it has to be marked down to move. This isn't a mom and pops shop that is making things on a one-off basis. There is so much more to it than marking up the manufacturer's cost of an option and the delta to the markup. These decisions are data driven. Every single one. The companies make the choice that, in their opinion, will satisfy the customer while maintaining profitability. They know that they can't please everyone, so they try to please the most people. Most people are happy to look at a few different trims and pick a trim that best fits their wants.

If Americans were the type to actually order cars, way more options would be available. Americans want to drive on the lot the day they want a new car and drive home with a new car. Instant gratification... it is the American way. Most Japanese dealers carry practically zero inventory. You go there, test drive a demo car, and order your car. You don't buy off the lot. That makes a huge difference in how Toyota specs a car to individual countries.

We all compromise on every vehicle we buy to some degree.

The more they produce a part, the cheaper it becomes - economies of scale. They will offer some options such as fog lights and a bunch of aftermarket junk for the Scion FR-S. And they've offered optional seats, shift knobs/e-brake handles, HomeLink, and navigation systems with satellite radio in the past. And I can order those things from Subaru as replacement parts so I don't see why not. The keyless start and auto/dual-zone climate controls can only be made in another trim such as a release series car. Fair enough. I just hope the HID/LED's will be offered at some point or can be imported and replaced easily enough without costing an arm and a leg.

I liked the BRZ's exterior better, but with limited availability and much higher mark-up plus whatever dealer add-ons for additional roundabout mark-ups... I just didn't want to pay that much more than what I pad for the FR-S. Didn't want leather and I don't like Subaru's dual climate control--and NAV I didn't really care about either way, except for its more sleek look.

I like my FR-S' interior better, especially with the red accents, however, it's head unit is ugly... I miss steering wheel controls, but I'm not sure if the BRZ has those either. I would've liked to get the BRZ cuz I thought my fiance's white Outback XT and a white BRZ would make for a neat couple photo, but we can just open our hoods instead to add focus on the Suburu stamps all up under my hood. :wub:

I'll be ripping it apart to customize it my way so it made more sense, over my proposed 10+ years of ownership, that I will just get the FRS now,and perhaps a BRZ later used with all the factory goodies (or even a Scion updated ones if they will ever come out with Toyota 86's GTLimited bits. )

http://farm8.staticflickr.com/7222/7...26a0d503_b.jpg
Wekfest 2012 Long Beach CA, Scion FRS by Moto@Club4AG, on Flickr

Got me the Toyota 86 black-tail and clear front marker from a guy who wanted to trade my Scion parts for his 86 in Hokkaido japan. :D
Working on what to do with the $3200 that will take to modify the HID part with Toyota 86 LED system housing, ballasts, controllers, ride height sensor, and harness. But again I'm not in too much of a hurry till the right opportunity comes.

yes, if you want these things all part of the original car, the BRZ is a great deal, as long as you can find one with no $7000 dealer markup and before November this year... LOL

Yeah, I know what they're for and why some people like them (I'm from Upstate New York), but I still think they're superfluous. That's the "old school" in me I guess. :)

Well, looks like I'm getting a BRZ limited.... <________<;

Here are some bits of information I gathered while car shopping that might help you with prices. It sounds like you don't plan on getting one until next year, which is a good idea! Subaru has a VIP program that lets you get a car for 2% below invoice, and will probably be available to use next year. For more info on that go here. That should significantly bring the price down of whatever you purchase. It will probably be in effect for the BRZ sometime next year.

Since the 1 series was mentioned in this thread and I happen to know a good deal about them now, I'll also comment on that (even though the OP isn't interested in one, it's always good to know your options). BMW has a program called European Delivery. You get the car for about $4k cheaper (depending on base, packages, etc) and get to drive around in Germany for a couple weeks. With the money you save you can get the plane tickets over, hotels, etc. Basically a free German vacation. You can check out what price you might pay here. You should be able to get it for about $500 over the invoice price (after selecting the Munich European Delivery dropdown on the right). Another option (the route I took which netted me a 2011 135i with every option/package for $36.6k after tax) is to look at 'factory cars.' Essentially, people high up at the dealership get to pick a car, spec it however they want, and drive it up to 5k miles. Then it is sold as a 'new' car (since it has technically been owned by the dealership the whole time) at about $10k below the original MSRP (depending on warranty time remaining, miles, etc). I seriously considered the ED program since I work for a German company and wouldn't have to pay for my flight over there, but I loved all the options I got on mine.

What I learned car shopping is that paying anywhere near MSRP is a ripoff, especially if it's to jump on a car that will be selling for several thousand dollars less in a year's time (when you'll actually be able to find one with the options/packages you want). Since you're looking at a 2014 model anyway it seems, I imagine there's going to be a big shakeup in options/pricing anyway (rumors of convertible, sti, etc...) so if you're set on a FRS/BRZ it would be a good idea to wait another year anyway. Less problems from the factory, lower price, more options.

I feel like this topic is kinda redundant..... there will never be a win... always will have arguments for both brands of the car...

Personally why did I choose the FR-S?

I liked the styling better for the FR-S/86, the front end looks more aggressive vs the BRZ. I didnt like the big plastic part of the bumper on the BRZ nor the side vent of the BRZ, didnt like the spoiler, rather go wingless or a lip, something more subtle.

I was looking for a fun affordable sports car for my daily driver, dont need all the bells and whistles of auto climate control, leather seats, push start etc etc etc... I was never a fan of leather seats.. they get hot in the sun, overtime wear out and start cracking, you slide around etc etc...(BTW the seats in the FRS are nice, really firm and hold you in, I have a lot of complements on the seats from people who dont even know what the car is) I never cared for auto climate control... its def nice to have but its def not necessary... plus i usually drive with the windows cracked/open and usually dont use the A/C unless its blistering hot outside or I have a passenger. Push button start is cool... but common? where is the satisfaction of turning the key to hear the engine crank and start? idk maybe im old school. Also i cant say this wasnt a factor, but reading reviews regarding the suspension differences of the FRS VS BRZ I prefer a stiffer damper and a softer spring. For a majority of the time I'm going to be keeping my FRS stock... my s14 is money hungry enough.. ill be on the streets if i start moding the FRS.

Also.. scion pure pricing... All scion dealers should abide by this and sell it at MSRP listed price.. Now does it happen everywhere.. as you can read around this forum.. no... not sure what you can do if a scion dealer does a mark up.. Pure price is definitely a good thing at least right now.. my friend in japan tells me 86's there are being marked up a ton of money due to demand.. so something that could happen with the BRZ.

Now dont get me wrong... the BRZ lights im def a fan, the halos, the factory HIDs and leveling controls.. how sweet is that! the FRS lights def are pretty plain... I really wish they had the same headlights at the JDM/Euro 86 but one day i'll prob upgrade to the GT86 lights and leveling controls.. hopefully the install of the leveling isnt too bad. the NAVI option for the BRZ is nice.. i optioned for the bespoke unit for the FRS, but its not in yet so I have yet to play with it.. but reading the manual online it seems that to get some type of routing/navigation it has to link up with your iphone.. i dled the app and it looks a bit primitive.. hopefully some updates will be coming out soon that will make it better.


So all in all.. it really depends on the driver you are and what preferences matter to you... BRZ has more convenience options, maybe for someone who will be driving the car around town more than the track. FRS is just what you need, no fancy gadgets, great for driving around and track time, more sporty look and feel.

thats my 2 cents.

BTW... really? people are disappointed there are no steering wheel controls??? dont think those are necessary... something tells me toyota/subaru didnt put those there for a reason... IE the wheel should be simple, nothing distracting you to steer and control the car.

Yeah, the prospect of modding it to my liking sounds kind of fun. But yikes, $3200 to replace it with the 86's HID's? That's even more than I thought! :( Would you have any idea how much the leather/Alcantara front seats would cost to replace?

I won't be in a position to afford this car for a few months anyway but I may just try and wait to see if next year's model offers the HID's/LED's.

This is one of the two reasons that I am now driving a SWP BRZ Premium rather than an Asphalt FR-S.

I also like the front 'vents' and bumper better than the FR-S. The bumper grew on me, and I think it looks... classier? I dunno.

Also, Satin White Pearl doesn't cost an extra 220USD like Whiteout does.

Hey Moto

First off thank you for each and every one of your posts! They have been very insightful and have made the wait for these cars much more exciting. I, as well as others I'm sure, hope you will continue to share with us your experience with the car along with its modifications.

I wanted to ask you which antenna replacement you purchased, from where and at what cost, along with the rear spoiler. Also you mentioned you installed an 86 black-tail. What were you referring to and could you provide a detailed image?Are there any clear side-markers that don't cost an arm and leg?