Duly noted. Guess I need to start looking for some BRZ springs. :D

Edit: I take it back. There is an SAE definition for the terms as well as a specific test. I'm slapping my forehead for having forgotten it from school. Simply put, with the vehicle going in a fixed-radius circle, while gradually increasing speed, at the limits of adhesion, what does the driver have to do to maintain the fixed radius?

Turn more = understeer
Turn less = oversteer

I've been practising this in empty parking lots since I first started driving the car but failed to remember the reason why I did it the first time - tuning the suspension of our formula SAE car in college. DUH!

(yeah, I finally played that card)

Sticking to my original argument, the FR-S is pretty damn neutral. Pick up the speed steadily and one feels all 4 wheels let go at the same time.

This is a very specific test and, by itself, is not a fair way to describe overall handling. Compared to any other reasonably accessible performance machine on the road, out of the box, nothing comes close to either of these cars.

...IMHO

When I say "capable of either" I don't mean a car that understeers all the time but you can technically make it rotate through brute force. I mean it's in the middle and you can get it to go either way easily.

Got it, that makes more sense.

Brz handles better? Think you should research "different tires"..

I think what was meant to be said was the BRZ handles differently, and to him* it handles better.

You just restated what I already said, a single event corner. So next time you decide to drive in big circles in parking lots go ahead try to suddenly flip the wheel the other way. The FRS will spin out before the BRZ.

Still stock for stock the BRZ is the (minutely) faster car around a given road course. does thay really matter? Depends on how you use your car, certain classes in autoX/racing then sure but once you modify the cars suspension it's irrelevant. I'd still rather have the BRZ because a multiple of reasons (the only objective one being the Bi-Xenons) but there are other threads for that.

Ok, then I guess I'm back to looking for some BRZ springs. ...and hey, there's nothing wrong with driving in big circles in parking lots.

Guys, I request for your expertise on the pricing of the following car:

http://www.autotrader.ca/a/Scion/FR-...howcpo=ShowCPO

Is it a good purchase, was able to knock it down $500 to $26,500. Many thanks!

Doesn't seem like the dealer knows its monogram, even then how is the pricing for a 2014 monogram series?

Sorry but they are asking $27k for a used car with almost 6000 miles, NO WARRANTY, and its not certified pre owned, also at the bottom of the description there is an additional $550 "documentation" fee.

Its also listed close to $2k over KBB value.

I would not touch it with a 10 foot pole.

EDIT: This is canada so my opinion is based of US market and may not be valid. I still say avoid this at all costs though.

Buy the BRZ. Worth the extra couple thousand dollars so that you can look down your nose at all of the FR-S owners.

According to Scion and Subaru Comparison tool on the website, both vehicles use P215/45WR17 BSW Performance Tires
Unless they are lying out of their a:sigh::sigh: I'm pretty sure they are the same tires. But as well, I am not sure what it is that you mean by quoted different tires. Sarcasm?

Personally on FR-S vs BRZ, Subaru has made this car more luxury with simple interior upgrades.
The Monogram and Limited are still different though.
Subaru also now offers the Blue Series with a new body kit.
Even though, yes you can upgrade the base model yourself, it is still not the same as getting it the way you want it right from the start. Just personal opinion.

That's why I got one, I feel superior every time I see an FR-S on the street.

Ironically, because you think that way, (if srs) you are then inferior :)

His name was Robert Paulson

And for 2015 they will likely handle the same, ending this debate authoritatively from the factory.

One assumes the 2015 suspension upgrade to the FRS is just switching to BRZ springs since no upgrade is mentioned in connection with the 2015 BRZ, yet.

Hopefully, the BRZ will receive whatever else is done, better rear shocks would be a good start and if the bolts are changed in the FRS then I expect the BRZ will get the same.

Unless you are a pretty good driver you would not notice the difference. I know I couldn't.

So, go for the look/badge/price you prefer.

I jumped on preordering the FR-S a month before they arrived here on the day they went for sale.

The reason I bought the Scion was that I had purchased an xB a year prior, a car whose trim and features were far below the Acura TSX, loaded Accord V6 and several cars I had leased prior offered. I wanted an economical people/cargo hauler that I could buy cash and felt it was the superior choice in its league. Having learned of the FR-S on the web it sounded like the superior most economical choice in it's category.

Before the FR-S arrived I had second thoughts and considered calling the Subaru dealer. The additional features did look impressive but in the end I did take delivery of the Scion.

In retrospect I like the small styling differences of the Scion better and as my second vehicle I really didn't need the extra toys. I do much prefer the face on my twin vs the Subaru and frankly when I look at the BRZ there is always that flaw, like a woman with a nice figure but not a nice looking mouth.

Incidentally, having been impressed with Subaru's tech features and also longing for the added power of turbo, I ended up leasing a fully loaded '15 WRX second vehicle. This way my twin remains more driver focused and the WRX satisfies my need for tech stuff.

I can see if you can only have 1 vehicle and handle the extra cost the BRZ offers a nice if not slightly less attractive looking package.

I read this on their PR site.

"Handling has been improved for 2015 with revised suspension dampers for smoother motion and absorption to help achieve optimum contact to uneven roads for a more enjoyable driving experience. Also contributing to the BRZ’s handling are 4-wheel independent suspension and 17” summer tires with 15-spoke dark gray-finished aluminum-alloy wheels."

http://media.subaru.com/newsrelease....on-brz&mid=117

So yeah, I guess it could be getting the same suspension upgrades as the FRS. From what I've read of the original suspension, I'd prefer the neutral BRZ handling to the drift happier FRS. But perhaps they will have the same suspension setup going forward.

As for which car I like better, I go back and forth on the front fascias. Right now, I like them both about equally with maybe a slight edge to the FRS. But of course the BRZ's standard LED headlights are much better. Which FRS have LED headlights, 2015 Mongrams ?

Interiors, I prefer the BRZ. I just like the black tach gauge better. And from pictures, I think the metal BRZ dash insert looks better than faux CF they have always used on the FRS, and they are putting on the 15 BRZ. I would like the alcantara seats but don't care about keyless entry, so I could go either way on that option. Although I do like the look of the upgraded climate control system. The basic one looks pretty old fashioned. So I'd have to get a real deal to take a basic model without it.

For paint options, I think WR Blue would be my first choice, so that's another advantage for the BRZ. But I think Whiteout/SWP looks great too. Also that yellow special edition 15 FRS is gorgeous.

I have heard there may have been possible upgrades to the '15 manual transmissions. Any truth to that I wonder ?

It will probably come down to whatever is the best deal. I can tell if I decide to buy used, the FRS are considerably cheaper. I've seen a few clean title 2013s for under 20,000. Most of the BRZs are only a few thousand cheaper than new.

I'd love to buy new. But I'm worried I'd lose my butt in depreciation if I get bored and decided to sell it in a few years. Especially if they refresh the car in 2016/2017 and offer a factory supercharger option or 2.5L NA engine upgrade.

I've never bought a brand new car and it's enticing. But I keep thinking about how I'd save a few thousand in sales tax alone buying used from a private party over new from a dealer.

its insane how Subaru and Scion/Toyota owners will fight on this website..insane!

Its the same car, but if you pay a little more you get a little more (leather, HIDS, etc.)

How are you guys fighting? We drive the same car.

I picked out and was ready to buy a 14' Limited BRZ when the toyota dealership down the street got a shipment of 13 FR-S's in...price and color was right, so I bought the FR-S, it was just a better deal (for nearly the same car).

this thread needs to be renamed "ft86 Car vs ft86 Car"

jeezes.

Sounds like something an FR-S owner would say... :slap:

Really though, I am just butt-hurt about the general attitude of a lot of the BRZ owners:

"Personally, I wouldn't be caught dead in a Scion."

And then when you act offended:

"I said 'personally', why are you getting so offended? It's just my opinion."

The other day a subaru STi driver waived to me....i wasnt sure if he saw my toyota badge or not...even he knows I drive a 'subaru/toyota' and he was ok with it.

We are on the same team guys, play nice.

They are the same base car.
I am a subaru guy... (i owned a WRX swapped GC8 and a GR-STI)

I bought the FR-S because it is cheaper and I dont like leather. i like the looks of each car pretty much equally.

I agree. I bought my FR-S because I am not a fanboy of either brand and when I went to test drive the BRZ they wanted me to put a $500 deposit on one, when I went to the Toyota dealership they handed me the keys and said "Have fun!"

I may be a bit jaded about the whole SUBARU>SCION thing though because I used to keep up with this thread:

http://www.ft86club.com/forums/showthread.php?t=28131

I like the BRZ a little bit better, but Toyota offered me 27,000 for my Tacoma, and Subaru offered me 23,000, and I was going to go aftermarket on anything I didn't like about the FRS. So in my case, I like MY FRS better than any available stock BRZ. I would have liked the BRZ seats better and the push start. The monogram would have made sense if I waited. I hate the FRS headlights but 3 weeks in the car gods spoke and let an idiot back into my parked car cracking a headlight and insurance replaced them with the winjets.

Spent 2 months practically staring at this pic deciding between these two beauties. (I created the collage myself from internet pics so I could compare)

Almost went with the Aozora (or Series Blue as its known in the States) when I walked into a Scion Dealership and negotiated them down to atleast come close to the BRZ's price (RS 1.0 has a higher MSRP)

Finally put down a deposit for the Scion :D