ya good point, guess we'll see what they decide to do I'm just anxious for more info :mad0259:

Facebook and email are better choices most definitely but, unfortunately toyota disabled there email contact method due to the high volume of emails they receive due to the recalls; I created a facebook group that you can join by clickin on the link

http://www.facebook.com/#!/group.php...5142896&ref=mf

My gut and intuition tells me that it won't happen but still let's see what develops as time goes on.

While I share your concern, accounting affects development far more than marketing. Marketing is a by product of the end result. It will affect what cars are made, but most definitely not how they are made.

I disagree in the case of Scion. These cars and the brand did not exist prior to some marketing decision to create a company to directly target youth. Instead of producing interesting, exciting cars like the FT/R-86/S, it was decided to put 'funky' bodies on Echo platforms. Accounting could easily sign off on that as the platform did not need to be developed, and the powertrains were cheap. Then they marketed the living shit out of them.

For the most part I agree that accounting is usually the major downer for cars. But in Scion's case Marketing is king. The fact that it is also supposed to be an inexpensive brand is the worst of everything really. A car company run my marketing douchebags, and cheap accountants. Sounds like a recipe for disaster to me.

(Accountants would probably agree with my theory of Camry-izing the FT/R-86/S too, so yeah, fuck them too.)

I'd prefer it to be a Toyota, but one positive of being a Scion is no dealer gouging? Correct me if im wrong.

The Toyota bB and ist would like to talk to you.

The funny looking Echos? What would they say?

That they existed more than 4 years before some "marketing decision" was made to build them.

Okay, I changed my mind. THIS THREAD is srs bzns, not the other one.

Damn skippy it is! I think anytime me an Matador are debating it is srs bzns.

Hmmm... I would have thought that they would have told me that they were simple transition vehicles, deemed not worthy of the North American market when they were co-developed with the Echo (JDM Vitz), while development progressed on vehicles specifically designed to target the US market.

It's really interesting that in Canada, while we didn't get Scion (until upcoming fall) we got a 5 door version of the Yaris HB long before the US did. Were they afraid of cannibalizing US sales of 5 door Scions?

http://cdn3.knowyourmeme.com/i/9992/...jpg?1250726993

^The thing s, the fact that they weren't specifically designed for the tastes of american customers is what made them the initial success.

But that wasn't part of the 'plan'. They were a quick, cost-conscious decision to quickly mobilize the Scion brand until the 'real' Scions could be sorted out. Plus there wasn't a cheap, economical 5-door Yaris which is probably what more people actually wanted. Instead of a 'hip', cheap (but slightly more $ than a Yaris), economical 5-door.

One issue I have is that Toyota North America, with the Scion brand introduction, seems like they may be taking the GM multiple brand path. And we all know how well that worked out in the end...

Toyota needs to stick with building better cars and not worry so much about tailoring new brands to specific demographics.

The major thing is, as I understand, kids these days don't want to be seen driving "mom or dads" cars. I'm not talking about the young enthusiast, who knows about the Supra, the rwd Celicas and all-tracs, the AE-86 and MR-2s. The average driving age teen I mean. The about to finish high school, in college, going into the working world young adult.

Even if Toyota had just said "let's make sporty cars again" It would not have solved their problem of an aging client demographic. Scion was created so that they could get young people into their showrooms, and start them of with Scion and have them grow into a Toyota, Mature into Lexus as they move up the social/financial ladder and then retire with another Lexus perhaps. That's the idea behind the brand. Yes, I despise their marketing tactics, but it is what it is. It irks me because there was potential for something much more than what it is, but the people behind Scion in the USA need to wake up and smell the coffee. It can yet be saved. I think Toyota is fine with 3 brands in NA. At least they aren't buying up other automakers like there is no tomorrow. Daihatsu exists in Japan and other eastern markets, It's not exactly the same idea, but it somewhat servers the same purpose. I think of Scion as a misguided USDM Daihatsu. It could do well with some oth their lineup actually.

Why did they need to create the brand, though? I understand the youth not wanting the mommy and daddy cars. But that had little to do with the Toyota brand. It had to do with every car in Toyota's recent line-up being agonizingly boring. Adding the tC as a Corolla coupe and the xB as simply a bB Toyota would've been fine.

I really think Toyota North America went crazy trying to jump on the 'tuner' bandwagon. But the thing is that it originally came up from the grassroots by people realizing potential in existing vehicles. Notably the Civic's potential to use Integra components, and the Supra's ability to withstand ridiculous amounts of boost. These were products that were 'chosen' by people to make a statement about performance, style, whatever. And part of the appeal is that it was rather individual (way back when). When Scion came out, it was during the over-saturation of the 'tuner' market (thanks Fast and the Furious!). And all of a sudden xBs and tCs were everywhere, having been given to 'notable' tuners to create show cars.

I think all this did was maybe reduce the market of Scion of older people who may have wanted an inexpensive practical box of a car. It also turned off a lot of their target audience (like myself) as being completely phony and trying to force or buy their way into my potential sales list. The last straw for me was seeing Scion as the new vehicle to sell TRD branded products. (Also which have sank down to being nothing more than over-priced re-branded components. Nothing like the good old days when they were simply expensive specialized components.)

The thing with youth market is that they can be very sensitive to targeted corporate marketing. Creating an entire brand for it can horribly backfire. If there is a desire for boxy mini-cars, fine. Build them. But what the hell is Toyota wasting all this money on a new brand for? Nissan has no problem with the Cube, Honda with their Element.

If the xB and tC were going to be successful on their own, there was no need for the $$$$$ to be spent on Scion. It could have been spent on the FT/R-86/S instead...

The future will tell if Scion goes the way of Saturn, Pontiac, Plymouth, etc... all branded as being entry-level youth oriented vehicles.

An interesting side note is that Scions may have a bit more 'cool' factor in Canada for the time being, since they are about as common here as some much more exotic machinery. Just from the rarity and mystery factor. 'What's that car?'

Either of you guys want a hug?
If not, how about a nice hot mug of shut the hell up?

Exactly what are you hoping to accomplish with this debate? Neither of you is gonna suddenly go "Oh. Guess you're right. Never mind anything I said for the last four pages." Toyota's not gonna read your forum posts and go "Oh shit, the random internet ranter is right!"

I actually did concede to him on the LFA one.

I believe there is a surprising bit of attention paid to the forums. NASIOC has had a couple high-ups (admins or mods, I'm not sure) invited to the press release of the new STi Sedan.

Besides we need something to do for the next year and a bit (hopefully not 3 and a bit) until this bloody car comes out. Or at least until the next it of news.

year? What? In Nov, GT5 is coming out!!! There goes another topic to talk bout in Nov. From there, all the auto shows gonna be happening all over the world (before and after new year). From there lil boredom in spring time... Summer and fall should be exciting to see the final production of the FT86.

Blow me. Then you can blow Dimman.









:bellyroll:


That's just the thing. It's not the cars, it was the brand. You are looking at it as if the whole buyer base were enthusiasts. They aren't. Adding those cars would not have achieved what Toyota wanted, by no means whatsoever. By the time Scion came about, The Supra had ceased to exist. The Celica (a really legitimate to the Integra at the time... pity the never made a GT4) was on it's way out, as was the MR-2 (Girly as the spider was, it really is a great drive and an excellent tuner platform). Why? Nobody was buying them, not even the demographic that they wanted.

yeeyha someone else has my point of view on the MRS (apart that i said i dont consider it a sports car, thats probably cus i dont like it aesthetically) im very bad at expressing my self over the internet but, im ESL to the max here
not just toyota, most car companies didnt have a "sports" car in the past decade (bar honda but they were mostly FF so not exactly all round performers)
problem is the 350z was a beautiful sports car (apart the door handles) but it was damn to expensive for the younger driver and bad for the lower back to the older driver :p

^I still consider it very much a sports car. Just like the Miata for example.

The Miata probably has the most bi-polar image of any car. There seems to be nothing in between it being a super-girly chick car, and hardcore track weapon.

:bellyroll:

I'm laughing WITH you!

This is my 2.5 cents worth, yet I may be wrong. Doesn't FT stand for (Future Toyota) and not (Future Scion)?
Secondly if we really really want this to happen our way why dont we ban together and take out a full page ad in a Japanese newspaper to say this is what we want as the admiring public.Wouldnt that catch the eyes of Toyota?
And lastly I dont think he said anything about Scion

Tetsuya Tada-son said;
"Its all a bigger game plan for Toyota. Tada admitted that other brands are catching up to Toyota's eco lead. TO ensure it maintains a stand out difference they will be first to produce fun to drive properly entertaining green cars. The FT-86 is the beginning of this game plan."


Just my 2.5 cents worth and a ramblings of a crazy man.

Even being a scion driver I hope this doesnt happen. I love my Tc but it would be a slap in the face to the AE86 for its younger brother to have to rock a scion badge...the only plus side to it comming out as a scion would be there would be alot of factory options for modding and alot of support for car shows and events which i love about the scion brand...Lexus badges would be nice though.

Lexus would be badass but dont see that happening

Right, Lexus cousin of FT-86 will be badass, but next gen SC will be more badass.

if toyata pull thier heads out thier asses and make em already

^This.

Ok, to make things even more confusing, or for me atleast, is that ive been told by a friend that works in the risk management division of toyota canada in toronto that the car is expected to be released as a Toyota under the Celica name; That's the buzz over there in toyota and for the release of the vehicle it is not on the back burner at all but will be implemented in the market in 2011, meaning that toyota will start marketing the car until it's release in 2012 or marketed in 2012 and then released in 2013...again i guess to be taken with a grain of salt it's nothing concrete but, i guess it's another story in the wacky adventures of the ft-86.

Wooooow, Raiden...
Not only is it old news... but it's ALL been denied publicly by representatives of Toyota or in the case of the "Celica name", there's much more evidence and reason to believe the contrary.

EDIT: Also, obvious troll is obvious.

What about registered trademark "FR-S"?

Matador,

Great post as usual my friend. If we are to follow your accessment, then there is a real possibility for Toyota to, perhaps, market the speculated upcoming inexpensive rwd car with a Daihatsu sourced motor as a Scion.

See you soon on SF!

^ Since this was brought up again above, I'm going to add a bit.

Did the WRX not do this exact thing for Subaru? Completely changed their buyer demographic?

You mean form middle aged dykes to boy racers?

:laughabove: just kidding.


seriously though, did you guys in the states even know Subaru even existed to make cars before the WRX? They didn't really have an image to conform to.

No they didnt!... Did they?

Before the WRX weren't they all grown-up affluent hippies and other assorted lefties that drove them mostly. And up in my home town, poor practical-minded kids who bought used Loyales because they were cheaper on gas than pickups. Function before style.

But the point is that a new model CAN revitalize and totally change a brand's image. No Scion for Subaru to go after youth. Just a good performance model.

(HINT-FREAKIN'-HINT Toyota!)

im yugoslavian (but im in oz now) and a few years ago i was talking to my mum telling her i want a Subaru.. she at 1st didnt know what it is (and she knew and was in to cars back b4 the war pre 90's) then when she remembered the name and said they are all pieces of shit.. that changed when she saw the WRX ;) changed the brand immage in her mind completly.. her shock to the difference prompted me to have a look at some old subies and they weretn much to look at..

i need a like button for this forum (one that doesnt link to facebook:p)

Yeah, but the question was about "guys in the states".
Setting aside relevance, it was a well-illustrated point. Subaru had a very different image before the WRX, which was probably the main reason they weren't as popular (as in.. the reason nobody knew them).

I'm still right. What worked for Subaru would not have worked for Toyota. People already thought that Toyota was aytag, and young people simply did not want to buy their cars.

Keep in mind, i would have preferred Scion no to have existed.

For that strategy to have worked, Toyota would have to have made a MkV supra for the market in 1999, A celica all trac with the last gen celica, and have made the MR-S with a proper engine. And not kill them all after slow sales.

:slap: (for Toyota)