I've only had a few experiences with balanced, steady state slip angles and it is one of the pieces that I am trying to put together.

Earlier in the day I managed to get just the right balance of smooth entry, throttle and initial speed to get VSC to allow substantial slip angle through the bus stop. It was an amazing feeling as I released some of the steering lock (what felt to me like a slight counter steer though the wheel was still turned into the turn) and just kind of gained speed as the car turned so nicely! I want to get better at the pre-conditions for that so I can confidently disable the VSC and know how the car will behave.

I'd had it the weekend before once at T-Hill also. Going around turn 6 when I got just the right throttle at turn in. That time I was scared and didn't hold it there but it was such an amazing sensation. Prior to that I'd only had some brief moments of slight rear slip angle when I got my tires greasy going over 5, so it just felt crazy and scary to have the car move underneath me like that.

I'm glad you were almost fully turned around by the time you went into the dirt. I've seen cars hit the dirt sideways and dig in with really bad endings.

I am exceptionally glad of that too! For shit going bad, I was insanely lucky and am counting my lucky stars!

Something else with the slip angle, The weekend before this one was the first time I was really getting the car balanced enough though the turns to start to achieve slip angle instead of straight line or oversteer conditions. For this weekend I had the alignment changed to remove front toe and add camber to the front wheels (rear was left at stock toe and is still stock LCA so I can't have the toe adjusted). As a result I kept pushing the rear out of the slip angles that the VSC would allow in sport mode. What had been fine with the stock "safe" alignment no longer working as well.

Mike, you have to remember that while he may not have been going too fast through that corner for YOU, it was too fast for HIM. Intermediate level drivers aren't supposed to be 'floating' through corners like you. ;)

I have to admit also that I was at 9/10ths or so there; it was the practice for the TT runs at the end of the day. I was running hard enough that I didn't have enough buffer for very many detrimental factors to occur. Obviously...

I got the old sweaty palms when you started to spin. Glad you and the car came out of it okay!! :cheers:

I've watched the videos countless times now, when the tail end starts to go I still get a knot in my stomach. When I see myself looking out the window I still have images of those tires coming at me. When the dust flies in the window I still taste it.

Crazy.

I should clarify that it wasn't too fast for the car :p

I think the car itself is capable of quite a good deal more speed there. Its just too bad it has to put up with me as a ham fisted driver. One of these days I hope to be able to keep up with what the car can do! :)

Let us know when you go out again. We can help you out. ;)

I'm trying to decide if I am still going to head down to Willow springs this weekend. Part of me is screaming to go (since this is probably the last one I will do until June), and part of me is saying I should take this one off. I've never been to Willow springs before, and I've heard from several people that Nasa can be a little wild so I'm not sure which way I am going to go.

Part of any accident whether it be on the track or the street is getting over that fear or thinkng about it (I got side swiped by a limo going over a huge bridge when I was younger and my car started spinning ON the bridge. I luckily hit the middle median but I totalled my car. I couldn't stop thinking about hitting the other side and going over a 100+ ft drop). It looks like you just nipped the rear coming out with a bit too much yaw/inertia on the wrong side of the car coming out of the previous turns. You'll just be more aware next time but still nice driving :) be safe out there

@ddeflyer, did you have track insurance? Just curious if you did or not.

NASA or SCCA aren't so forgiving if you go 2 wheels off. Are you doing NASA to get a race license? A little coaching from us will get you faster and more comfortable within a day. ;)

No, I figured that the chance of having an incident that would exceed the deductible was really low. Frankly I still think that is generally the case though I am going to seriously look into the bulk options for HPDE insurance.

Had you hit the wall, it would have been easily over your deductible. I think buying track insurance will greatly depend on the track. Some tracks have a lot of run-off, some don't.

A lot of people seem to go with Lockton for track insurance.

http://www.locktonmotorsports.com/pr...ack-insurance/

In this case I signed up because I want to give Willow springs a try and it fit into my schedule. In the long run I might consider trying to get a race license but for now I need to work my skills up quite a bit first.

I've been pretty proud of my low rate of two and four wheel off events (I think I've dropped two wheels once when I over cooked Star Mazda some (where I just steered straight like I was supposed to do), and I had a four wheel off going into sunset because I panicked at my entry speed and of course this big one). It is a little strange that all of my offs have been at Buttonwillow; I'm not really sure why other than that maybe the fact that most parts are safer to go off on makes me feel overly safe in general. Out of fourteen track days, four have been at Buttonwillow with no day having more than one event.

Yeah, I've gotten insurance from them several times and after a while I started to feel a bit less insecure about going on track. It is all about probability and luck as to whether it works as a good thing or not. What I've pretty much settled on is that I get insurance the first time I go to a new track, so whether I go to Willow springs this weekend or wait until trying the new 5 mile course at Thunderhill in June, I will be getting insurance for my next event.

Are you getting a chair with head protection? What about a HANS device, or the equivalent - will you be getting one of them?

I ended up going with Cobra Suzuka GT seats. I wish there were more seats with removable halos but there aren't any that I could find besides the Sparco Ergo which is half way impossible to get last I checked (sold out everywhere). I plan on getting a HANs device also, especially after this. Truth be told I've had a little bit of sore neck the last two days.

I wish I knew about the price of each event sooner. I was surprised that for a price of BRZ, it's only about $140 to insure per event. That's a small price to pay given that the car will cost 25-30k to replace. I was also surprised that a cheap car to insure e.g., 10k, will still cost about $130 per event. No point buying a cheap beater to take the track and sacrifice modern safety equipment, IMO.

Glad to hear you're getting the HANS device! Be sure you get the 2" shoulder straps. I've had the opportunity to feel my HANS device doing its job, and it did it quite well. I had no discomfort at all after the crash (a 70 MPH double-tap into Armco).

What do you think would have happened if you'd had the Suzuka GT, the harness, and a HANS device on and you'd hit the wall side-on?

If you are concerned about the risk of tracking your car and you do at least ten EVENTs (not days but separate events) then I would check out the bulk purchase options that Lockton offers. I think they cut the price per event way down with that. When you think about I think it makes sense. From what I have seen on the track, I would imagine that there are three kinds of people who really drive the rates. The first of course is the person who has never been on track and messes up (I would think this wouldn't be the highest risk category but I've seen a couple of people in it munge up their cars). The second would be people like me who are picking up substantial speed every event as we improve our skills but we don't yet have the full repertoire error handling modes and reactions to use them (not to mention we don't have the full set of situational awareness skills that an advanced driver would have such as "weird, I was able to take that corner way faster this morning when it was cooler... oh yeah, hot pavement reduces traction" and "gee, I wish I hadn't taken that point by right before the corner" (I saw this the first event I was at buttonwillow when a guiy took a pass right before sunset and ended up with his civic in the k-wall on the front straight)). Finally you probably have the single highest risk driver which would be the new person who brings their supped up quad turbo supercharged blah blah blah mo powaaaaaa fifteen year old mustang with stock brakes and original brake fluid who then proceeds to hammer the throttle (I haven't seen this one yet so I guess that is a good thing for tech inspections!).

After talking to the guys at Wine Country motor sports in Sonoma I went with three inch belts. The two inch belts require a HANs device to be safe but the three inchers can work with a hans device as long as you get them seated properly. Given the equal protection rule most groups have, I'd rarely be able to give rides if I got two inch shoulders on either or both seats.

If I had had a harness and seat I think I wouldn't have had the incident actually. I wouldn't have bumped the steering which pushed me over the last six inches or foot that made the whole mess and I would have just thought it was a close call from an early apex (or maybe I would have gone off straight instead of focusing on the yawing of the car from VSC fighting the oversteer I initiated by bumping the steering).

If I had still had the incident and had all the gear, then my neck would be a little less stiff (part of that is also from just fighting G-forces all weekend I think, not just the rapid deceleration of my incident).

Unfortunately I don't think I'll be able to attend more than a couple of events being that I'm from the midwest. :thumbdown:

Ah, that is a bummer. I love the fact that in CA we have so many tracks to choose from. That said I think road courses are becoming more and more common. I was really surprised to find out that a course was built in Hastings Nebraska only a short distance away from where I have some extended family.

Time to upgrade to AIM Solo DL!!

I'm still hoping for better results from my phone; I think really what I will need will be some sort of external sensors that are really hard mounted and calibrated.

U mean GPS sensor? I dunno if u r familiar with AIM Solo DL or not, dont wana sound like an ass but its highly accurate in lap time and able to direct download real time data via OBDII port - one of my best track mod so far hehehehe at least most of my hardcore track associates would only validate AIM Solo lap time claims :P


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I've read about it, and from what I understand it has a 10hz GPS unit in it along with accelerometers and OBD II interface. I'm trying to achieve the same thing with my phone but I need to get an external 10hz GPS unit (for position) and a better mounting solution (to have good accelerometer data), and I already have the OBD II data logging. As far as display goes, I have a head unit in my car that mirrors my phone. Essentially I am trying to get the data acquisition with a clean integration into the car. So far it is a work in progress though I am getting better with each event.

The problem with the data I had from my spin was that the accelerometer data was bad from the mount having too much play and the GPS was nearly useless except for general lap times (no decent correlation with exact on track position).

Hahaha that sounds kinda complicated, AIM makes it simpler but that comes with a price.... Ya usually spinning out turns off lots of sensor even GoPro too iono why


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We use an AIM Solo DL in the CSG BRZ, and I use one when I'm doing instruction.

Let us know if you're interested!

Save yourself the headache and just get dedicated unit. While the phone apps will give you accurate lap times, data acquisition is unreliable. The root of the issue is that the external gps and obd2 units are WIRELESS. You will constantly get dropouts and disconnects. Been there, done that...

you got really lucky!

Thanks to all who posted in this thread. This has been super helpful just reading. To the OP Glad your okay and your car is as well :)

Whew, DAT DUST STORM!

Glad you and the car came out ok. :cheers:

I dropped two wheels at Turn 2 Grattan raceway (MI) last year and it took all my willpower to not yank the steering wheel the other way.

Lots of good preventive advice in this thread for a beginner like me. :w00t: