The 86 is also a "not-your-usual-me-too" car either. It sort of fits. Scion is Toyota's "youth" brand, and the demographic they're selling the car to fits their Scion demographic as well.

Not that I entirely agree, but seen from Toyota's perspective it makes logical sense.

Thing is, the complaint about sales is being made on Toyota-badged GT86's in Europe. From what I understand, the FR-S is hitting the sales numbers just fine here in North America.

What I do NOT understand is why the rest of the world's GT86's and BRZ's get exhaust tips to match the valences, while North America FR-S's and BRZ's get these dinky exhaust tips. It's not that the axlebacks are different (they're not), just the tips. Why have an entirely different cosmetic part just for one part of the world? And one that absolutely uglifies the car for no legal reason (unlike the orange sidemarkers, which are ugly as hell on these cars but are there b/c of Federal regulations here in the US).

So many cries over "more power!" Get over it. If you're that douchebag who thinks every red light is a drag face-off opportunity then sell your damn twin and go buy a Camero.
Enough with the same redundant articles/threads.

FYI: Last night a guy with a white STI flagged me down in a parking lot just so he could drool over my car. Sure you can have a faster car, but I promise whenever you see a twin on the road you're gonna be eyeballing it too.

IIRC it was some stupid law about tips extending past the bumper surfaces or something. The JDM tips poke. Yeah, the stock exhaust looks like shit.

Haha, yeah, never-not redline this car. The engine gets pretty happy at the top end.

I, too, am spoiled by better sounds. I'm really not sure what to do with my car. I've got a resonated Milltek catback on it right now that sounds good (it's similar in character to the stock exhaust, but a bit louder and a little bassier / more rumbly / growly, especially in the bottom half of the tach under load). Unfortunately because it maintains a similar overall sound to the stock exhaust, it still sounds a bit characterless (especially at high rpms once it stops growling) and it's a little quiet. I'm really at a loss regarding what to do, since it's nice to have an exhaust that's not too loud on your daily driver, but it's also a little boring at times.

Unfortunately, after listening to god knows how many clips of various exhaust setups on youtube it seems like your options with this car basically boil down to:

- EL headers and louder exhaust: sounds like every generic ricer car ever.

- UEL headers and "make it sound like an STI": I think the thundering rumble suits the WRXs, but just seems out of place on a a high-strung engine that makes no torque.

IDK, even the old Porsche 912s (another boxer 4) sounded better than our cars. The Elise with a little 1.8L I4 sounds better than our cars. Surely there must be a way to make them sound less boring without making them sound like a ricer Civic or a WRX. I hope I can figure it out sometime, otherwise I might have to give in to my Porsche temptations and just get that flat-six sound.

Sh*t, missed that "youth brand" part, hopefully I don't get busted for buying this car at age 57! :eyebulge:


:lol:


:cheers:

Well, the name "Scion" should've given you a clue :P.

j.k. j.k.

Only real reason I went with Subaru over Toyota is brand loyalty... and I was really put off by Scion's fixed pricing (not a cost saver, just a way to let dealers add on mark up parts and insist on a too-high OTD price... whereas with Subaru you can at least negotiate something a little lower than they originally want to charge you). Otherwise, I could have gone either way and been totally happy.

I went to Toyota to price a FRS Series 10 and it came out $1500CAD more than a Subaru BRZ Limited/Sport-Tech that has more equipment. Also not too keen on the dealer installing options instead of the factory. Also not sure why they even need a Scion brand when everybody knows it's really a Toyota. There's something called Google these days.

I'm a big fan of the brand Toyota and Lexus but something about "Scion" just seems lame to me. I think the FRS would have done better under the Toyota name

I disagree with this wholeheartedly.

Scion IS toyotas youth brand. Correct.

But The FT86 is NOT a "youth" car. Its all about marketing right?? and business?

Well why put the FT86 in the "youth" segment. Most of your youths are all about Power, and size and muscle and their penis. you will not find many people that "appreciate" or "understand" what the FT86 is.

The youth of today are a product of their generation and their cultural upbringing, and modern culture is all about superficial values when it comes to cars.

Its the exact opposite place you want to put the car.

Why?

EVERY ..older person I talk too who has had a car history, respects the FT86 more than my peers or younger (I am 26) . They know better ..they have been there, done that. They know where BS ends and real talk begins.

I have to really really smash peoples ego ..and get "high and mighty" when I start explaining to people about roll centers, Cg, Suspension geometry, wheel rates and roll rates and Skid pad numbers etc etc.

But Older people do not question me ..they "Understand" Even if they do not agree with it. Most young folks do not fucking understand how a "slow car" can be "fun". And as such moist young folks are at a disadvantage for test driving the vehicle. They have no idea how to "drive" fast ..they only know how to "use" their gas pedal and they will always walk away dissapointed.

Then how is it that most young folks are buying ecobox scions and toyotas and nissans and fords?

Today's youth are being indoctrinated in the cult religion of "green" (and all the al gore bullshit that entails), and care less and less about power and more and more about superficial looks and "carbon footprint."

None of the the Scion brand are massively powered, yet it is their youth brand. So, your definition is a bit different than the way Toyota corporate sees it, obviously.

Sure the manhood-compensating gangbanger "auto" culture youth are all about power and "dat turbo doe" bullshit (and such attitudes seriously piss me off). But those d*ckless wonders aren't going to be interested in a driver's car unless it becomes a non-drivers car, and then they're still going to ruin it with cheap, aesthetics only springs and overly cambered alignments for "dat slammed look".

But driving an 86 sure makes you feel young, whether you are physically young or not.

I'm 30, but I'm still young enough to WANT power, to enjoy a nice deep exhaust rumble, but I also want that car to be something I can hop in wearing dockers, button down, sports jacket and go pick up a nice young lady in a little black dress to go to the dinner theater and that car NOT rattle her up or annoy her with exhaust volume or scare her when the engine opens up. That requires a car with character that responds to the driver and isn't by default "because racecar." That's this car when driven maturely.

That's the youth I think Scion is appealing to overall as well, it's just that the other scion models aren't sports cars, but they all have this hip, refined yet polite manner to them.

That's my impression. But don't think I'm some Scion fanboi. If anything, I'm a Subaru Fanboi :bonk:. It's just that I think the FR-S fits in with the Scion lineup in terms of who they're wanting to sell the car to. Personally I think they'd be better off scrapping the Scion off-shoot name and simply selling those same models under Toyota. That way, someone looking for a 4dr sedan can see the corolla, camry, and the tC and xB all under one badge, and pick depending on his or her preferences instead of thinking "Well, what's the difference between Toyota and Scion? I don't want a sports car. I just want a Toyota", not realizing that Scion isn't a sports car lineup. But the name simply being different and Toyota already having a luxury car brand name (Lexus) would just confuse the not-yet-clued in.

I understand Toyota's concept of Scion, and I think their cars under that name have merit for the market. I just don't agree that creating a North America only rebranding was the best move for them to sell to the younger demographic.

Actually the only other Scion I ever saw was a god awful box looking "minivan" type certainly not a young persons car! :D
Now that right there should have given me reason to pause!:eyebulge:
As far as the fixed price goes, the FR-S has very few available dealer options, mine has none. The haggling actual occurs in your trade in price.
But I do agree with your general premise that the fixed pricing is basically a dealer scam!


Between the BRZ and FR-S, I chose the FR-S because and this is a good one! I found the ultramarine available at a dealer ~ 2hrs from my house. All the others closer by were white for some reason. Either way I think it is a really decent car. :thumbup:


:cheers:

No question it's a decent car. It's an 86. And Subaru was pretty fixed on how much they'd give me in trade. That wasn't negotiable. Price of the vehicle I wanted, however, was.

But BRZ or FR-S... pick which front end you like and whether you want leather/alcantara seats or just cloth. Make choice, ?, profit :bonk:.

That's because at first glance it looks like "Scallion", that's why!

"Yeah baby, I'm drivin the awesome Scallion FR-S!!!"

The power is good enough for me. I mean hell I can't even open the thing up because there is always some one in the way haha. But seriously its good enough. I was a little disappointed with the torque numbers when it first got revealed but having had mine for awhile I am pretty satisfied. The car puts the power it has down pretty effectively. I just take it for what it is.

I think people just like whining about something when it comes to these cars. Its like people actively find something to hate about it. I mean the closest competition it has is a miata and that thing is slower, smaller, and less precise and yet I never hear to much whining about the miata or that it lacks power. The Miata was designed for a certain purpose and people seem to generally understand that, but can't when it comes to these cars.

In any case plenty of aftermarket support for more power.

The discussion of the Scion brand is kind of interesting. I understand the idea of trying to appeal to a new customer base, the problem is that American buying power in the demographic Scion is aimed at for big things like cars and houses is at an all time low.

The fact that accountants and marketing poofs are continually perplexed by struggling brands targeted at people with no money and lots of debt (before they even walk into the show room) is hilarious to me. The cherry on top is that when the original xB came out, old people LOVED THEM! "What an adorable and practical run-about that is easy to drive, park, and cheap enough that I don't care about backing it into a pole."

Count me as very happy BRZ owner.

You either get this car or you don't and if you don't then just move on because honestly, I'm too busy enjoying it to hear the BS.

As much as most of us on this forum hate the Scion xB, and the Honda Element, there are some who see cars as tools with no need for entertainment in their driving. They see it as a purely practical device to carry themselves, their friends, and their crap from one place to another.

The bad part is that you can do all of that with a much more fun to drive car, and I've seen the conversion happen. Dude I used to know had an Acura TL and he thought heated leather seats were as good as it got until he rode in my MR2. Now he drives a Miata, and loves every opportunity to do the spirited mountain drive.

People who have an xB just don't know what driving can be, which is probably better for us, otherwise there'd be a lot more cars on the road, and a lot more crashes in the hills from people over driving their cars.

And this. If you're just mashing it in 5th or 6th and hoping it will accelerate, you obviously should just get out of fun cars and go back to your massive turbo sedan's.

I find this a little discouraging, I used to romp on v6 Mustangs on the freeway in my Celica GTS with 20 less HP than the twins. I even had one flip me off once and all I had on it was an exhaust. But you're saying with the 86, we can't take on heavy-ass v6 Mustangs anywhere but the hills?

Not even the hills if the driver is equal. The Toyobaru loses in pure speed stock for stock to the V6 Mustang in every comparison I've seen.

http://www.motortrend.com/roadtests/...or_comparison/

Depends on which v6 mustangs you're talking about.
Newest model? No way
Previous model with 210 hp v6? Yes

x2

I wholeheartedly understand Toyota's point of view. I worked for a large Japanese company that operates the same way.

The people making these kinds of decision are looking at past sales and devaluing any changes they might make in the future. It's just what a financially conscious company does.

Passion is just not there any more. A car is a transportation device in the end, and that's what makes money. It's really too bad.

All i really want is 8k rpm redline. I don't care if it had 100 or 500hp.

Toyota's biggest mistake was putting a Scion badge on this car. Second mistake was expecting a larger sell rate than they are getting when they sacrificed to take a hit to sales in order to revitalize Scion.

What demographic can pay 25k for a scion? Certainly not the highschool and poor college kids... The well off kids with Daddy's money would buy a $$$ car not a Scion. Who actually buys this car??? Ppl with a full time job and dads who want to relive their rubber burning days

yup and they won't buy it since its a Scion.

A Subaru Vivio RX-R has 9000rpm redline :lol:

haha why? just print some numbered stickers and stick them on your tach. boom, done.

I'm a college kid, living on my own with G/F and child with another on the way and I drive this car.

No wait, I drive a Subaru, because even I won't buy a Scion. :lol::lol:

They are entitled to their choice! The point that was being made was that a previous poster had said that Scion was targeting young people. My observation was the this particular van IMO had no young person appeal!
There will always be those that think a car is simply a tool to get from A to B, I see hundreds of them everyday on my commuter, but this becomes slightly off topic so I will leave it there.


:cheers:

If Toyota was smart about it in the beginning, they should've built the current version they have now and built a more powerful version for the "others".

Just like having Supra NAs and Supra Turbos.
Celica NAs and Celica All-Tracs
Regular Celicas and Celica GT-S with VVTL-i
MR2 NAs and MR2 Turbos

I have not bought a BRZ yet. However, I am contemplating buying one very soon. I used to own a SRT4 which did the quarter in around 14 seconds stock and it was fast enough. If we are going what 14.9 we throw a turbo on it for 5k I am guessing we would all be around 14 seconds quarter mile right? That's friggin fast enough for a car that looks this good and this fun to drive...is my calculation off?

You will be much faster than 14 in the 1/4 mile with a 5k turbo kit

Under 14 with just a 5k turbo kit? What honestly should one expect to run the quarter for a 5k turbo kit, tune, full exhaust and intake?

If under 14 thats the same speed as a SRT4, Cobalt SS, Mazda Speed 3, approximately the same as a WRX and EVO also..

Sounds like power problem solved. In fact I would think that most people would not want them to make a more powerful version because than our cars would be the "weaker" version and the price would decline further. Also, if they stop making them it will become more desired. Take Pontiac GTO produced for a couple years and now the prices dont seem to drop further than 22k for a 2005 or 2006 version!

Yeah it is a bit strange to hear the Subaru rumble on the FR-S. Even in the youtube vids, I expect to see a WRX or STI, not the Twins. Haha, but it does sound good. If someone posts a video of the Perrin CBE (I have this exhaust) + OFH and it's not too loud, I'll probably go that route myself.

By the way, I tried looking up a video of the Milltek resonated exhaust. Deeper sounding than I was expecting!

This works well as long as the grocery getter driver isn't looking in his rearview mirror. If he/she is and sees you initiating your maneuver he can simply accelerate and drive away.

Not really

On phone I am. Therefore, if mistakes I make, Frank Oz blame you should.

Is the car still being made?



Delusions. You have them.

You keep forgetting the world now is ruled by bean counters, cost cutting, and shareholder dividends. The twins project also started a few years before the global economy tanked.

The tips are small because of US federal laws too I beleive. Or at least to not get sued.

http://www.autoblog.com/2008/12/23/m...advertent-tat/

Nanny state

..and all those cars also failed to sell enough to be kept alive.

I drive one. 29, college educated, employed, married, no kids, white. What demographic does that push me into? No idea, but you just generalized the hell out of a lot of people on this forum.