Just search and you'll see what I mean.... If you want less expensive options look at Revworks. Or maybe nameless when they come out.

I've seen exactly what you're talking about but still don't agree with your incredibly harsh assessment of the Borla header. It's definitely not as pretty as headers costing twice as much but you might be surprised at just how little hp is gained from a pretty collector vs an ugly one like Borla's. Also, welds don't have to be pretty to be strong. What do you think of this downpipe? A buddy and I fabbed and MIG welded it using a mixture of 304 and 409 pipe with a nickel plated mild steel flange!

http://img16.imageshack.us/img16/304...bosetup001.jpg

It may look like shit but it made great power and held up for 5 years and 50k miles without a problem. I'm sure it's still fine but I sold the car. HKS and JDL are grossly over-priced IMO, Nameless is a pipe-dream and RevWorks has a crappy 1 year warranty and a forum member has already sent his back because it cracked within months. Agency Power is Chinese eBay crap and I won't run a "turbo header" since I know I'll never be adding a turbo so that rules out FA20Club and P&L. There is that new "Hotpipes" header from the Phillipines but they're asking almost $500 for a true $200 header with a 1 year "good-luck using-it" warranty.

I wish I had better options but the Borla looks pretty good for $550 ($435 in my case).

For full exhaust with a tune.

@wrxgoose?

Yes, thank you.

Or any of them, really. The borla isn't significantly cheaper than rev works, fa20club, etc. the only header I've seen that costs double the price of the borla is the hks. It's definitely possible to buy one with flat flanges and a decent collector for the price of the borla, or damn near it.

Borla machines the flanges flat after welding so why would you think that they are not flat? Mine are perfectly flat. The Borla UEL costs $535 with free shipping from Amazon. I paid $435 for a customer return.

I would definitely consider RevWorks if they offered a better warranty but that's unlikely unless they add flex sections to prevent cracking. FA20Club and P&L are turbo manifolds with NA conversion pipes and JDL is a really pretty header that costs way too much at $900+ (more than double what I paid for a Borla).

that's actually why I've been doing all my runs on the same dyno now. Might be showing different from what another dyno shows, but my gains are what matters.

Also, if i'd gone with EL headers, I'd probably have broken 200 whp NA, since from what I've seen, we're getting more power from EL than UEL. I love that rumble, though

Well, some people are happy with a $1000 bicycle, while others spend $6000.

Is the other bike 6x better?... no.
Is it better nonetheless? .... yes.

The headers mentioned (other than HKS), are produced by small businesses. They don't do the kind of sales that Borla does to make money with the slimmest of margins. They also pay attention to the small details like the collector, aesthetics and TIG welding. These practices are more time consuming. Thus the headers cost more for them to build.

Why knock the other products, because they cost more? It's not like the companies mentioned can just change their price to $535, as they would lose money on every sale.

My point is that some consumers are willing to pay more for those attributes. If it weren't for those consumers, there would be no more artisan, handmade types of products, and everything would be mass-produced crap. Technically, if it weren't for the handmade $900 headers, Borla would be free to price theirs much higher.

I have a hard time with buying parts from companies who copy others designs , poorly machine the product and still ask $500 for it.

There are multiple threads on the borla issues. One guy so far with the rev works.

JDL is expensive I agree. Lifetime warranty is nice thou.

As far as nameless....we'll see what happens at the end of the month.

Gains on the same dyno are indeed what matters. I'm looking forward to your boosted results too. I'll check your build thread. I agree that EL is probably better than UEL. I highly doubt that it's 11whp more NA but it's certainly something.

Good points, I understand and agree with you. I should not have said that JDL and HKS cost too much. I should have said instead that they cost more than I'm willing to pay for the performance gains associated. I'm glad that there are people willing to spend thousands on artisan, handmade products. I'm often one of them but not so much for a header that is hidden under the engine. Mainly I just took offense to a certain member's snobbery concerning the functional, affordable and very well warrantied Borla UEL header.



OP: So sorry for the thread-jack. Awesome tune on that HKS EL exhaust.

subbed.... interested in see what a catted or resonanted HKS will do.... getting my HKS front pipe next week. planning on headers next....

Good Info!

Any updates on this header?

Only that we had one on a 6MT Vortech-charged setup, which you undoubtedly saw...

Ref : http://www.ft86club.com/forums/showthread.php?t=45835

What else were you looking for?


Bob @ Drift-Office, LLC

Mainly tuning, other dynos, longer term durability report. Lot of money for a header but it seems to offer the best performance based on dyno's posted in that it cures the torque dip and it has a the best top end. But there isn't a lot of reports about it.

Would you say that a dyno tune is mandatory for this header, or can you recommend any Subaru experienced e-tuners who would work with the OFT or BRZZedit?

Durability : construction seems solid compared to the others I've seen . I can say contrary to forum reviews, both Borlas I've tuned were fine and without issue, while both RevWorks headers on different cars had issues. One had a cracked weld after install and heat cycling while the other had a leak elsewhere. Both HKS ELs had zero issues, but I suppose you could take that for what it's worth. Then again, for that kind of coin, it better be flawless. :) Ultimately, the verdict is still out since most of the products out there aren't haven't even passed a year of usage yet...

And yes, a dyno tune (not E-Tune) will be needed to realize the actual gains. You can't make cam adjustments and know if it makes power with an E-Tune. For peeps without tuners in their vicinity though, that's going to be the only option I suppose.

Tuning options : of all the options out there, ECUTek while had initial issues, is still the most developed out there. At this point in time, OFT and BRZEdit are still relatively new...

Regards,


Bob @ Drift-Office, LLC

I believe the set up is catless which is believable. Almost every dyno I have seen with all the bolt on mods that are catless all have gotten similar numbers. I wouldnt doubt the numbers they provided. A good tuner can be the difference of making more power or not. And there is no reason to think that they are BSing us when they are just giving us numbers they achieved from tuning a customers car that has this header. They arent trying to sell us/advertise the HKS header but they are letting us know how well they tuned a customers car with the following mods they listed. What do you honestly expect when you pay more for a reputable brands product. What you pay for is the R&D they put into it and the quality/craftsmanship. Look at Borlas early problems with warped flanges and how many people had to return it to them for the warranty. Sometimes people just prefer to pay more for a quality product that will work well. With HKS that is what you get for paying a little more for a great mod. Same thing with other mods for this car. Look at some of the more expensive intakes like Syms and GruppeM. They cost an arm and a leg but you know what you will be getting from them because you get what you pay for. Excellent craftsmanship, quality, and performance. When tuned it would be even better. Just like how Drift-Office has shown us with this HKS header after tuning it with excellent results.

It just seems like you are either jealous or just arent happy that another owner has gotten MUCH better numbers with an HKS header than your car with a Borla header. You dont see anyone knocking on you for buying a Borla header. If someone decides to pay more for a different vendors products let them. They obviously preferred the HKS because of who they are and what you get. You get what you pay for and it has been well documented that the Borla headers arent really that great compared to all the other headers out on the market. They were one of the first headers to be released.. What do you expect from a vendor/company to be one of the first ones to release a part for this car. Other headers that are taking longer to come out have much more R & D which in return are a better product. Just look at the Nameless header and how long it is taking to develope. I was very interested in the Nameless header and I wouldnt doubt that when it is all said and done that the Nameless headers will probably be one of the best headers for this car because of how long they are working on it to make sure they put out a great product. Borla headers are affordable but they released it early to make more money from people who didnt want to wait or was patient enough to wait for better headers to come out. Look at some of the early intakes and mods on this car that were the first models to come out. They turned out to either provide no gains or even lost power because they rushed it out to make some quick cash since they were the first ones to have that part out. AirRaid and Agency Power were one of the first vendors/companies to come out with some parts for this car and they have been proven to be the worse ones, but they ended up making a lot of money from people since they were one of the first ones to come out with those parts. Its not any different with the Borla headers and what do you expect from them when tons of other companies were still working/developing their headers when Borla came out with theres. The difference is Borla headers actually make some power where as AirRaid/Agency Powers mods didnt get any gain or were nothing close to what they advertised.

They are just simply showing some great gains they achieved from tuning this customers car. Why would you not believe it when they just showed us the dyno's. No one is forcing you to believe what they say. But when a shop/vendor/tuner is giving you proof with dyno's theres no reason to not believe it. These numbers have been achieved multiple times by a lot of other owners of the twins with similar mods or with all the bolt ons you can get w/ a tune. Theirs tons of other owners of this car that got similar numbers with all the bolt ons/tune. This car just happens to be one of the better tuned/performing cars on this forum. No one is forcing you to be in this thread. If you dont like it or dont believe it then ignore it and move on with your day. @Drift-Office has been around these forums for a long time and are one of the more reputable/transparent vendors like Perrin/Nameless. They would have much more to lose than gain to lie about things like this. It takes a long time to build a good reputation and it only takes a second to ruin it.

Well now, the information we post out there is just that - information. It's really up to the eye of the beholder to believe or not believe what they read and see. As FR-Sizzle has said, no one is putting a gun to your heads, and everyone can certainly call it whatever they'd want, make whatever sense of it as they'd like. It's a free world out there!

On the flip side, my JDL order has finally shipped. I wonder what some of you guys will say after that review gets posted! :)

Cheers!


Bob @ Drift-Office, LLC

It sounds good, and makes some good solid gains! But phew! What a price tag!

Did you actually expect me to read all that? Buy whatever you want and believe whatever you like. It really makes no difference to me.

What you want me to give you Cliffs too? Heres a shortened version. Just seems like your mad and jealous that a HKS header is MUCH better than your Borla and you are just looking for a reason to say its not good. They have much more to lose to lie about something like this than to gain. I have never seen someone on this forum knock on another persons results just because a header cost more than what they paid for theres and act like just because it cost more it wouldnt provide better results. Especially on a new platform like this car where new things are being discovered/developed everyday.

Takes less than a minute to read everything as I re read my post. Talk about lazy. If you dont have anything positive to say no ones forcing you to be in this thread. Knocking on other peoples/vendors mods/results because the header cost twice as much as your Borla header and you honestly think just because it cost twice as much as your Borla header that it wont perform better? FYI Why do you think HKS and other vendors like Nameless took so much longer developing there headers instead of rushing them out like Borla to be one of the first vendors to have a header out. 90% of reason why they cost more is because they put MUCH more R&D into it. HKS just like Nameless both headers cost twice as much as your rushed out/early released Borla headers and you honestly really think it performing much better isnt possible? That is the reason why HKS/Nameless both have better headers than Borlas and you start questioning that those numbers are too good to be true. This isnt true in all cases but in this case it is very well so. Those results are very well believable and IMO Borlas headers results were great when they were first out but look at how long ago they released it compared to other companies. Its extremely obvious that they didnt put as much R&D as other companies. As we are starting to see much better results from other headers just recently released. Do you honestly think they just charge double of what your Borla header costs just because they are HKS?

When people like you bash/knock on a reputable vendor like Drift-Office is when it isnt cool. Who honestly calls them out saying those numbers arent believable when they provided us with multiple dyno's and results along with the parts the customer used.Very much seems like your not happy that another header is performing MUCH better than Borlas poverty time header when you compare it to whats available.It honestly looks like you think that Borlas headers were just so good that to see another vendor like HKS have a better one for double the price that is isnt possible.

Do I know you? WTF do you think you are to presume to know my motivations and emotions? The numbers sounded too good to be true, especially for grossly over-priced HKS crap so I raised a question. Maybe the numbers are 100% correct and repeatable and maybe they are not. Babbling about it incessantly doesn't change anything. You sound like my ex-wife, you presumptuous jackass. Get a life dude!

No, I didn't read you latest novella either...

Then how would you know what he wrote? Because you couldn't know and call him presumptious without reading it first right?

You sound like a gem. Your ex must miss you.

I read the second sentence, moron. Thanks for keeping your idiocy brief. :)

Numbers sounded too good to be true on a new platform like this car? Do you honestly think that companies have already pushed this car to its limits like how the S2000 has been which has been out for 10+ years? This car is barely more than a year old with a fraction of as many parts as other cars models. Tuners and Vendors are still learning the ins and outs of the car and you're questioning the results of HKS's headers that probably had a couple more months of R&D put into it than Borlas.

Your telling me to get a life when your the one who is coming into this thread knocking on other peoples success/results. Who honestly has the time to do shit like that? Do you honestly think a company with as great as a reputation as HKS would release a product that would perform like shit? I would expect a company like HKS who spent more time developing their header to perform better and cost more. There are lots of companies in Japan that charge MUCH more than HKS for just some headers that probably arent that much better. HKS has always released parts that perform well at a justifiable cost based on the performance. You can tell they do their R&D on these headers and compared to Borlas. This is a great example of when a company does its homework. If you honestly think HKS headers are expensive then you should go look at other companies like Mishimoto or Revolutions headers which all cost 2-3 times as much as HKS.

Borlas headers were released much earlier than most of the other headers for this car. I would say they were one of the first ones to be out if you dont include Agency Powers BS. Do you really think they put out the best possible headers they can when you still see companies like Nameless still working on them a year after they announced there headers are in development? There arent that many headers for this car and just by looking at when Borla released their headers compared to HKS/Nameless's and their R&D and how many revisions they made you can see there was LOTS of room for improvement still. And you act like Borlas was the benchmark for headers to compare to when if anything Borlas headers are a great example of what you get from a company who wants to make money by rushing a product out. You see how many problems they had with quality control/warranties and you really think that there headers will be the best performing when its kinda obvious they rushed theirs out. HKS released their headers months later.. do you really think they were just sitting around not doing anything? A couple months more of R&D is a big difference as we all saw in this thread and that is also a lot more time and money developing the product. Imagine how well Namless's headers will be when its all said and done. Making revisions and doing R&D isnt cheap, then you have to test it. Being the first product out gets you more money but it doesnt get you the best results as we all saw here.

To see a tuner like Drift-Office make such a great tune isnt surprising. If they didnt provide any dyno's that would of been a different story but they gave us plenty of proof. A reputable company like HKS puts out a good part and that surprises you? How do you think they got there name in the first place. They have every right to charge double of what Borla charges when they offer a superior header/product. You dont think maybe they tested other headers from other companies during R&D? I know Perrin did that with their CAI so I wouldnt be surprised if they tested Borlas or any other companies who offer a header and set a price based on how well they faired versus the competition. To get what the numbers in the OP got I would have no problem paying double of what Borlas costs.

23 hp gain (with tune) over stock on pump gas and elimination of the torque dip is impressive and bound to make owners of other headers defensive.

As far as the Nameless I think they are designing by trial and error while HKS used SOA computer aided modeling, simulation, optimized design. Just an educated guess, any way I'm saving my money to send to Japan (again.)

Tough part is finding a local tuner, you guys on the west coast are lucky with Drift Office, Delicious, and Vishu. The real east coast Subaru tuners haven't jumped on tuning this platform yet (most are busy with wrx's and didn't buy the EcuTek license.)

HKS (which has a long history of tuning Toyotas) had this car in their possession months before it ever hit our driveways. Consider that when thinking about R&D time. That was a clear advantage over the parts developers here in the US.

I wouldn't worry about the self-centered and self-assertive. They're bound to ostracize themselves eventually when they find less people to align themselves with. :)

This is 100% true...

*AHEM.* You're also assuming that all calibrators tune the same way and will get the same results. ;)

Regards!


Bob @ Drift-Office, LLC

Fast_Freddy is a perfect example of that. Borla headers were one of the first few headers released and its funny how some people like him think that another header getting better results isn't possible on a car that isn't even more than 2 years old.

Exactly and the fact that they released it much later than Borla means that they were testing there headers for a long time. We may not know the exact amount of time they spent developing it but the fact that they released it later than Borla and it got better results isnt surprising and some people like Fast_Freddy think it isn't possible is just being stubborn/ignorant. How can you ignore that Drift-Office gave us multiple dyno charts too.

Its not like Drift-Office tunes only HKS headers. They have tuned Borlas and HKS headers and are simply just giving us the results they got from this customers car. Its great to see them comparing the results from Borlas to HKS headers from different customers cars. Especially since the results they showed us were from customers cars not there own.

Some people need to realize that this car is still new and I am sure tuners like yourselves are still getting better/learning new things about this car as new parts come out.

But that's why you should sell the HKS header with a basemap to at least give those of us on the other side of the country a fighting chance.

@Drift-Office, going FI (JR S/C) (as you know I've wanted to do for a while) to add to this set-up. I PM'd you and hopefully we'll work something out (as you're always busy).

+1!

I would seriously buy the tune today if you offered it.

I'm thinking so, however, does the HKS fit without hitting the underbody splash gaurds?

The vendors I asked said yes it clears, its fairly similar in shape to the stock manifold.

Woohoo
 

Can't wait!

Can you post up a vid reving it a little?

No issues.

For anyone that's interested..
I had my car tuned earlier this week. I also have HKS 4-2-1 EL Headers.

Here is the graph
https://fbcdn-sphotos-g-a.akamaihd.n...39570736_o.jpg
Base "STOCK" 86: ~132 hp
My Modified 86: 168.1 hp
DELTA: ~36.1 hp

STOCK CAR DETAILS:
Toyota 86 GTS(Black) - NON MODIFIED

MY MODIFIED 86 DETAILS:
Intake
- HKS Cold Air Feed(with 3x ducting holes cut out in front bumper)
- TRD USA Intake

Exhaust
- HKS 4-2-1 Equal Length Headers(NO CAT), has O2 Sensor bung to fool computer there is a CAT
- MOTIV Concepts Overpipe
- MOTIVE Concepts Front Pipe(with HFC)
- HKS Spec-L Cat Back Exhaust

MISC Mods
- The DriveShaftShop Carbon Fibre Drive Shaft
----------------------------------------------------------


"MAF turbulence caused by the intake. In the many, many FRS / BRZ setups that have come and gone thru my facility, I have noticed that you would be hard pressed to get a better intake than the stock. Granted that it doesn't look bling enough for most, it really does well when it comes down to it, especially if you're planning to tune it down the road." BOB@Drift-Office

Bob, have you had any chance to test out he new HKS cold air intake, was wondering on your thoughts of this one(since it's developed by HKS).
I'm running the TRD USA Air box(with the oiled panel filter) but your mention of the intake

http://i42.tinypic.com/t8axrc.jpg

Also for the naysayers, it is highly probably to develop 20rwhp from just headers AND a good tune :popcorn:

Cool Stevo surprised on how low your base was though?

Done 3 of these already, 4th one being an AT coming. No issues so far.

[ame="http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=y0YKn5xptAE"]Drift-Office : HKS FRS / BRZ / GT86 Equal Length Header Tuned ~ 195WHP! - YouTube[/ame]

Regards,


Bob @ Drift-Office, LLC

Bob, thanks for sharing your findings in such a clear, concise and unbiased perspective. Being able to sort thru well documented testing of multiple products has made my mod path much more focused. The first week of December I will have an HKS EL header and front pipe installed along with 93 and E85 dyno-tunes. Then off to Roebling Road to see what the extra power translates into!

I never understand the drama that comes out of these discussions ??? Buy whatever you want with YOUR money. I personally feel HKS is right for my car and they can be bought without waiting for months. On my C63 I paid $5500 for long tube headers and a tune. Some may say that's ridiculous but I picked up 100 whp and the car became a total beast. Bottom line it was my money and it was worth every cent.