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-   -   Vorschlag/AST/Moton Hands On BRZ (https://www.ft86club.com/forums/showthread.php?t=3901)

oneday 02-27-2012 11:54 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by pithy_logorrhea (Post 143232)
Can you cite source(s) for this?

Quote:

Originally Posted by pithy_logorrhea (Post 143232)
Can you cite source(s) for this?

I probably should have said, "compares favorably to higher performance/lower UTQG tires."

There is Tire Rack's Clash of the Titans: Testing Two New Max Performance Summer Heavy Hitters, which compares four Max Performance Summer Tires:
Bridgestone Potenza S-04 Pole Position(UTQG 280)
Continental ExtremeContact DW (UTQG 340)
Michelin Pilot Super Sport (UTQG 300)
Pirelli P Zero (UTQG 220)

Grassroots Motorsports also did a wet and dry test (only the wet portion is online at this time...Splish Spashincluding the Dunlop Direzza Z1 Star Spec, Toyo Proxes R1R, Continental ExtremeContact DW, and the Continental ExtremeContact Wet (actual race tire).

My personal experience is the Conti ECDW is slower, but damn respectable, compared to Dunlop Start Specs or Hankook RS3 in the dry, but much faster in the wet--I've done back to back to back on a wet race track with the same car, changing tires between sessions.

Draco-REX 02-27-2012 12:12 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by oneday (Post 143265)
I probably should have said, "compares favorably to higher performance/lower UTQG tires."

There is Tire Rack's Clash of the Titans: Testing Two New Max Performance Summer Heavy Hitters, which compares four Max Performance Summer Tires:
Bridgestone Potenza S-04 Pole Position(UTQG 280)
Continental ExtremeContact DW (UTQG 340)
Michelin Pilot Super Sport (UTQG 300)
Pirelli P Zero (UTQG 220)

Grassroots Motorsports also did a wet and dry test (only the wet portion is online at this time...Splish Spashincluding the Dunlop Direzza Z1 Star Spec, Toyo Proxes R1R, Continental ExtremeContact DW, and the Continental ExtremeContact Wet (actual race tire).

My personal experience is the Conti ECDW is slower, but damn respectable, compared to Dunlop Start Specs or Hankook RS3 in the dry, but much faster in the wet--I've done back to back to back on a wet race track with the same car, changing tires between sessions.

Hmm, I didn't realize the Conti ECDW is 2lbs lighter than the R-S3. I'm starting to rethink my tire choice since the R-S3 sucks so much in the wet. Crud.

Dragonitti 02-27-2012 12:46 PM

Quote:

Best looking interior for a 25 grand car I've ever seen.
Quote:

I'd skip the Limited package and get the "base" model for $2K or so less.

Makes me think of how much the FR-S will cost since it doesn't come with what the Limited has..

Grimlock 02-27-2012 12:49 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Dragonitti (Post 143288)
Makes me think of how much the FR-S will cost since it doesn't come with what the Limited has..

Don't forget that they don't actually know the pricing any better than anyone else right now. The prices listed in the article are just estimates like every other price we've seen so far.

Jayde 02-27-2012 01:26 PM

Curious, but wasn't it suppose to come with steering wheel mounted audio controls? Or did they decide to leave that out?

Mr.Jay 02-27-2012 01:42 PM

Steering wheel will have no buttons on it

Jayde 02-27-2012 01:46 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Mr.Jay (Post 143309)
Steering wheel will have no buttons on it

That's what I was thinking too, but I do recall seeing one with them somewhere.

Not a deal breaker though. My current car doesn't have them either. :D

TheRipler 02-27-2012 03:06 PM

Good to see the guys at Vorschlag are on this. I've got an AST suspension on the STi that they rebuilt/tweaked for me, and they are the real deal.

Wish I would have known that the car was in Dallas on Saturday. :mad0259:

Dragonitti 02-27-2012 03:13 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Grimlock (Post 143291)
Don't forget that they don't actually know the pricing any better than anyone else right now. The prices listed in the article are just estimates like every other price we've seen so far.

True that. I was more referring to their price gap between the Limited and a "standard" model. They suspected something like a $2k difference.

Draco-REX 02-27-2012 03:17 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Mr.Jay (Post 143309)
Steering wheel will have no buttons on it

There were controls on the steering wheel in the Aha video. And the guy in the video said it was a 2013 BRZ. So who knows? They might still come with controls. But considering that is the ONLY place I've seen wheel controls, I'm not holding my breath.

TRD_07 02-27-2012 03:38 PM

It sounds like he is sure of the BRZ being 25k and 2k more for the premium which as he stated doesn't sound good to get the premium. I wonder if the FRS base model will be a little cheaper than 25k.

Draco-REX 02-27-2012 03:46 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by TRD_07 (Post 143388)
It sounds like he is sure of the BRZ being 25k and 2k more for the premium which as he stated doesn't sound good to get the premium. I wonder if the FRS base model will be a little cheaper than 25k.

Subaru has said multiple times at it's auto show presentations that the BRZ will be 25K. I'd be shocked if the FR-S wasn't less since it doesn't get HIDs or Nav.

maxeveland 02-27-2012 07:26 PM

just the naming alone should indicate that the frs will be cheaper. 1. its a scion and 2. the base brz is referred to as premium, which indicates that there should be something lower in class, ie the frs

Alias 02-27-2012 10:05 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by maxeveland (Post 143591)
the base brz is referred to as premium, which indicates that there should be something lower in class


While I agree that the FRS does come in a lower trim level option in comparison with the BRZ; it's not a lower trim level BRZ, it's just the BRZ's sister car. (A very close sister)

BRZ does have a base model, it's just not coming out in America, the stripped out track version (very similar to the ft86 that's on steelies and doesn't have lsd or painted bumpers in Japan) is going to be available in the UK and will be the "base" model for the BRZ

Edit: I don't really understand all the anger in this thread, if someone wants to leave their car as is instead of "improving" it, then you should let them, you'll totally get better times in your autoX or whatever.

If someone wants to throw away every single piece of the car and replace it as soon as they get it... let them, they paid for it, they should be able to do what they want with it.

There's no need to get upset or tell people they have to leave the thread just because they want a different thing than you. I know the car isn't out yet but there is going to be more than 1 made. You wont have to share yours with everyone else so it will be ok if you have different plans for the car, you can just buy separate cars and do what you want with them.

dietz 02-27-2012 10:29 PM

I was hoping they would measure the trunk to cabin height clearance with the seat down. I'm curious if I can fit my kayak in there, it fits in a 2 door civic. Anyone want to venture a guess based on how tires stacked up in the back look?

dsgerbc 02-27-2012 10:50 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by catharsis (Post 143763)
holy.
..
The reality
...
two main reasons
...
average noob

Troll.
Ignore.

Quote:

Originally Posted by serialk11r (Post 143752)
My point being, these tires don't even seem that bad.

You can't satisfy that crowd with reasonableness. It's either fresh Hoosiers of a 'faster' batch or the hottest "street" tire with 80% thread shaved off or it's inadequate. And if it's not on the widest possible wheels with fenders rolled and max allowed spacers installed - again, it's no good. What annoys me - is that the business in the title starts bashing the car/tires even before it's out. Gotta keep customers warmed up and ready to click away on that next purchase.

Ryephile 02-28-2012 12:55 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by dsgerbc (Post 143785)
You can't satisfy that crowd with reasonableness.

Not to mention, NOBODY in the general public has driven this car, Vorshlag included.

OrbitalEllipses 02-28-2012 01:38 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Ryephile (Post 143874)
Not to mention, NOBODY in the general public has driven this car, Vorshlag included.

You mean you weren't invited to that super secret test drive event I went to? :iono:


:trollol:

Ryephile 02-28-2012 01:41 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by OrbitalEllipses (Post 143899)
You mean you weren't invited to that super secret test drive event I went to? :iono:


:trollol:

:burnrubber:

LionZoo 02-28-2012 01:42 AM

Shady dealership. Non-refundable deposits are not allowed...

devinclfalcons 02-28-2012 02:10 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by TRD_07 (Post 143388)
It sounds like he is sure of the BRZ being 25k and 2k more for the premium which as he stated doesn't sound good to get the premium. I wonder if the FRS base model will be a little cheaper than 25k.

I think the FR-S has to be less than the BRZ. Even if it comes with Bespoke standard.

Its a Scion, no HID's, no Nav = Less expensive than BRZ

jdrxb9 02-28-2012 08:13 AM

cargo size
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by dietz (Post 143770)
I was hoping they would measure the trunk to cabin height clearance with the seat down. I'm curious if I can fit my kayak in there, it fits in a 2 door civic. Anyone want to venture a guess based on how tires stacked up in the back look?

You could easily have missed it since it was kind of buried in the Pittsburgh Auto Show thread, but to quote myself:

One really important thing to me is the cargo area, since I like to haul bicycles with me almost everyday and I prefer to haul them inside the car for various reasons. The trunk pass through measures 40" wide by 13.5" high and is very rectangular. Again with the seat adjusted for me, there is 57.5" of length available from the back of the drivers seat to the rear edge of the trunk. Fitting either a road or mountain bike is looking very promising. Also, I don't think I would have to compromise my driving position in order to place a single wheel/tire horizontally behind the driver's seat, though a two-high stack might force the seat more forward than I'd prefer.

Racecomp Engineering 02-28-2012 11:45 AM

Realistically those that wanted a "competitive" tire would have had to go out and buy them on their own anyway. The limits will still be pretty high from the factory with these tires, which aren't that bad.

They're better than RE-92's by far. :lol:

Quote:

Originally Posted by jdrxb9 (Post 144001)
You could easily have missed it since it was kind of buried in the Pittsburgh Auto Show thread, but to quote myself:

One really important thing to me is the cargo area, since I like to haul bicycles with me almost everyday and I prefer to haul them inside the car for various reasons. The trunk pass through measures 40" wide by 13.5" high and is very rectangular. Again with the seat adjusted for me, there is 57.5" of length available from the back of the drivers seat to the rear edge of the trunk. Fitting either a road or mountain bike is looking very promising. Also, I don't think I would have to compromise my driving position in order to place a single wheel/tire horizontally behind the driver's seat, though a two-high stack might force the seat more forward than I'd prefer.

I actually think a mtn bike could fit in the back easily.

- drew

SVTSHC 02-29-2012 12:53 PM

17X9... They trying to fit 275's on it?? Holy sh-

dsgerbc 02-29-2012 01:07 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by SVTSHC (Post 144977)
17X9... They trying to fit 275's on it?? Holy sh-

They'd go wider if they could ;).
9" is the legal limit IIRC. And 265 is the legal limit for tires, which pretty much means Dunlop Z1 SS.

pithy_logorrhea 02-29-2012 01:14 PM

In STX/STR you are allowed a 9" wheel for 2wd cars.
STX = 265mm tire
STR = 255mm tire

dietz 03-01-2012 02:14 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by jdrxb9 (Post 144001)
You could easily have missed it since it was kind of buried in the Pittsburgh Auto Show thread, but to quote myself:

One really important thing to me is the cargo area, since I like to haul bicycles with me almost everyday and I prefer to haul them inside the car for various reasons. The trunk pass through measures 40" wide by 13.5" high and is very rectangular. Again with the seat adjusted for me, there is 57.5" of length available from the back of the drivers seat to the rear edge of the trunk. Fitting either a road or mountain bike is looking very promising. Also, I don't think I would have to compromise my driving position in order to place a single wheel/tire horizontally behind the driver's seat, though a two-high stack might force the seat more forward than I'd prefer.


Thanks for the repost, very helpful! Probably the only way I'll get it in there is to have the passenger seat folded forward, which I've had to do before. Or a roof rack when one comes out to fit it.

oneday 03-08-2012 06:03 PM

UPDATE: AST Coilovers
 
Vorschlag has released details on their hands on from a couple weeks back...remember, I am just the messenger :happy0180:

Quote:

Originally Posted by Vorschlag

With the measurements we took two weeks ago Brian at AST-USA has worked with AST Holland to develop a unique coilover set-up for this FT86 chassis. The front strut drawing for an AST 4150 was completed this week and they have allowed me to share the drawing (without dimensions) here:

http://vorshlag.smugmug.com/Cars/Sub...8-Sheet1-M.jpg

Unlike on the Subaru platform from which this front McPherson strut suspension was "borrowed", this FT86 chassis has no need to clear a front halfshaft (it will never be AWD or FWD), which normally runs underneath the bottom of the front strut. This means the strut body can be extended below the mounting clamp for additional stroke (bump and rebound travel) even at a lowered ride height. This is a win-win for enthusiasts, autocrossers and track racers that want to buy an FR-S or BRZ and want the performance benefit from a lowered ride height, but don't want to suffer with substantially reduced bump travel.

http://vorshlag.smugmug.com/photos/4...58_XnEPf-S.jpg http://vorshlag.smugmug.com/photos/4...47_HuYh9-S.jpg

The OEM FT86's rear shocks are virtually unchanged from a different Subaru chassis, so that won't have to be completely new from AST - other than the update to the new 4150 specs. Vorshlag has ordered a prototype set of these AST 4150 coilovers and we will put them on our BRZ as soon as it arrives. Then we will work with AST-USA on valving for this chassis. We'll add our spherical front camber plates at the same time.

http://vorshlag.smugmug.com/Cars/Sub.../DSC7995-S.jpg http://vorshlag.smugmug.com/Product-.../DSC7457-S.jpg

Luckily we already have a camber plate that fits this chassis perfectly. Should be able to make these camber plates work with any coilover set-up on Day 1, with spring diameters of 2.25", 60mm or 2.5". If there is some unforeseen issue with this camber plate on this car (weird caster or camber settings) we will quickly redesign a unique FT86 version. We'll also take apart the OEM suspension, measure the front spring ID, and make the OEM style upper perches to work with our camber plates as soon as the car arrives.

http://vorshlag.smugmug.com/Vorshlag.../DSC7325-S.jpg http://vorshlag.smugmug.com/Vorshlag.../DSC7310-S.jpg

The upper perches we include with all of our camber plates is somewhat unique. This allows for a pressed-in, sealed, radial ball bearing assembly to isolate steering loads and rotation from the spherical bearing. Part of the secrets that make our camber plates last longer than others out there.


Ryephile 03-08-2012 06:24 PM

http://vorshlag.smugmug.com/Cars/Sub...8-Sheet1-M.jpg

...and the free and total stroke numbers are?.....

If that shaft indeed says 22mm, then free stroke is something like 3 1/2" and total stroke is something like 4 3/4" with the bumpstop compressed. That's less than I'd hope for. With any luck they'll comment.

octagon 03-08-2012 10:41 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Ryephile (Post 152271)
If that shaft indeed says 22mm, then free stroke is something like 3 1/2" and total stroke is something like 4 3/4" with the bumpstop compressed. That's less than I'd hope for. With any luck they'll comment.

They use 60mm ID springs. Scaling from the picture I get 140mm total stroke and 95mm travel before bump stop engagement. Their camber plates have low stack height too.

Ryephile 03-08-2012 10:54 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by octagon (Post 152406)
They use 60mm ID springs. Scaling from the picture I get 140mm total stroke and 95mm travel before bump stop engagement. Their camber plates have low stack height too.

Thanks for the scaling interpolation. Keep in mind the bumpstop doesn't 100% compress, typically 75% for an MCU/open-cell bumpstop common to high-end or OEM bumpstops. That would give a max total stroke of about 5", which IMO is minimum acceptable for a street car of this weight. We'll have to see if they match the stroke with the rear setup, as that has a motion ratio other than virtually 1:1 of the front mac strut.

M4TT 03-14-2012 03:05 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by octagon (Post 152406)
They use 60mm ID springs. Scaling from the picture I get 140mm total stroke and 95mm travel before bump stop engagement. Their camber plates have low stack height too.

You can get even more travel switching from that spring perch to a camber plate with low stack height.

Ryephile 03-14-2012 03:44 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by M4TT (Post 155580)
You can get even more travel switching from that spring perch to a camber plate with low stack height.

It sounds like you're assuming the spring perch shown is consuming usable damper stroke. It may or may not be. We'll have to wait and see the actual parts from AST, though I'd be surprised to see them leave usable stroke on the table when it appears the setup is already a bit light on stroke.

M4TT 03-16-2012 02:00 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Ryephile (Post 155933)
It sounds like you're assuming the spring perch shown is consuming usable damper stroke. It may or may not be. We'll have to wait and see the actual parts from AST, though I'd be surprised to see them leave usable stroke on the table when it appears the setup is already a bit light on stroke.

Yes, that is my assumption because the piece looks to be similar in dimension to the Subaru WRX 4100 perch which is designed to work with the oddly shaped factory spring perch. From my understanding it put the bump/droop travel in the right position for use with the factory mount in that application. The spring perch on the BRZ does look to be a different design, so the same may not apply. However, I think the bump stop should be able to move further up the shaft before beginning to compress. We won't know for sure until it's tested, but if it is unusable stroke, I think there is still more room to extend the bottom portion.

Silverpike 03-16-2012 05:54 PM

I just want to add to this thread that I had AST 4100s on my 02 WRX. The damper tuning that Vorshlag did to these was incredible. You are still largely at the mercy of higher spring rates (depending on what you get), but the damping could not have been better tuned.

Anyone who wants higher spring rates on this car would do really well to choose AST dampers (blatant plug). :thumbsup:


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