I'll play devils advocate here.

The car has its suspension and wheels modified. The car has had a non manufacturers exhaust (ie Performance) installed.
The car has been taken to a closed course and driven outside of normal operating guidelines. The engine failed due to the off highway use. Closed racing circuits are considered off highway driving. Period end of story.

You may get a really good lawyer to use them touting the "track days" statement in advertising and get it fixed. The lawyer fees in most administrative cases are covered by the losing party so shouldn't cost you a dime if you win.

Apparently, many stock (and lightly-modded) engines have seized under non-track/non-racing/non-off-road conditions, so it would appear a bigger problem may soon be afflicting owners...so what happens to those guys?

So what is the "normal operating guidelines"? Would redlining at every shift, but on the highway fall under it?

I will also play devil's advocate.

Can you prove to me that the car's warranty requires it to be used on public roads only? If it breaks on my driveway that I own, it's technically off highway.

Can you prove to me that the exhaust (muffler) altered the parameters of the engine to ANY degree that it caused the failure? We'd be more than happy to subject a complete exhaust system to flowbench testing. Header to exhaust tip, with just the axleback portion swapped, and compare the results.

In what way does changing the suspension and wheels cause the engine to fail?

Does the burdon of proof not lie with the manufacturer here?


I'm not an attorney, nor do I claim to be.

Subscribed. This is really frustrating me. Mike and every owner that participates in a HPDE don't deserve to be denied warranty work for bs reasons like this.

I feel like there's got to be some type of middle ground in all this. Mike isn't babying the car, yet I dont feel he's abusing it either. The maintenance he's doing seems to be adequate and he hasn't mentioned anything about abuse (overrevving, etc).

We could probably all bust the engines easily and legally on the streets if we just stayed in 1st and 2nd. Just cruising around 7-7.5k all day..

This is what Scion uses to advertise the car:
[ame="http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=W7jBnYS_Ot8"]2013 Scion FR-S Teaser (Extended) [HD] - YouTube[/ame]


How is this different, with regards to wear and tear, than driving on a track?
Yes, I know this scenario is an exaggeration but why should a big company be allowed to get away with this kind of advertising and not cover the same kind of use?

I encourage you all to research on NASIOC just how all this generally plays out. This is a definite been there, seen that with Subaru. Including how people are bringing up the track day advertising.

I don't think that Subaru/Toyota should deny the coverage on the motor for track use, no. What probably raised the red flag (in their minds) is that it's the second time.

And from long track experience - no, nothing you do on the street will equal the beating you can do to a car at the track. That's why so much money has to go into prepping cars for any extended track duty. The question, though, is what caused the damage to the motor in this case. If it's not because of DI seals or similar, and is instead of prolonged high-rpm use at the track, it's going to be a battle.

That's because Subaru and/or Toyota will want to cover their rears in regards to replacing parts that are going to fail under extensive racing usage. This is the flip side of all the warranty claims from people that did abuse the cars, and then just claim they were driving 35mph when the motor just grenaded spontaneously.

This ECU logs everything. If we had overreved at ANY point, I'm sure they would have been prompt in giving us a copy of the maximum RPM the ECU logged, and used that as grounds for warranty denial due to driver error.

Has ANYONE here ever seen me fly off track? My driving is rather conservative, because I cannot afford to break a component on the car (I pay for it if I break something while driving), and certainly cannot afford to wreck a car. Is there a risk of that happening on track? Sure. I'm sure as hell going to minimize it by driving well within my limits. It's also what holds back my development as a driver. As such, I have a good amount of mechanical sympathy, and do not dump the clutch, abuse the car, etc., unless specifically asked to do so by the owner.

Example: My S2000 has had the same clutch it in for over 115k miles, and is still going. It's got plenty of hard driving on it.


@AVOturboworld: the 2nd engine showed every sign of a DI seal failure; we were told by a dealer to come back when there was a CEL.

WTF :mad0260:

Does it? I'm under the impression that the "black box" only records the last 30 seconds of operation and I doubt that anything that the ECU has is really usable or else insurance companies would be pulling ECU data for every accident.

Mike I'm not in anyway saying that your claim isn't valid. I'm just giving you what the manufacturers attorney is going to say if it gets to that point.

Semantics of "off highway use" and the driveway remark aside, you and I both know that if a judge/jury/warranty claim arbitor hear that you tracked the car it's gonna throw a red flag. Unless you have a helluva lawyer you face a Mt. Everest size climb getting them to replace the engine under warranty.

The issue here is the direct injector system is crap, it is failing due to heat. Subaru and Toyota are starting to put the puzzle together and notice this is happening to cars that are being driven under extreme heat aka track driving. I think it would be important to find out if anybody else that is not tracking their car having this problem, if you can prove the direct injector caused the failure like it did on my car they cannot deny warranty on it and i think this is why subaru is trying as hard as they can as to not tear down the engine and investigate. Toyota did a teardown on my engine and found the cause of a broken piston to be the car running lean because of a direct injector seal. I got covered but i am this close to selling my car and parting out, since they warned me that this was going to be the only engine they would warranty since i drove it hard, im afraid to be in your boat.

What octane fuel have you been running?

91, the highest regularly available in California.

I am an attorney and you have no clue what you are talking about.

The manufacturer wrote the warranty. If it does not explicitly exclude track days or HPDE or "driving the car on a closed track". Then they can't legally deny the warranty claim. He wasn't racing the car in an event or competition. There is no "red flag." (or green, white or checkered, in its racing context) Of course the company's lawyer is going to argue its not covered. But right now, it sounds to me like no expert has determined what caused the engine to fail. If it is the injector seal, then it is hard to see how the manner of driving had anything to do with it. If it over-revved, then there are a bunch of new issues, like why the ECU didn't cut fuel, and since the car was never tuned the stock rev-limiter should prevent this.

Lastly, the winner does not get their attorney's fees paid by the loser. Each side pays their own attorneys' fees. (Unless the contract states that attorneys fees are recoverable, which I do not believe the Subaru warranty does) The winner can sometimes recover a portion of their costs (like expert fees for testing and testimony). That makes it difficult for most people to sue the company. The fees come out of your recovery. If we are talking about an engine that's worth, say $8K, an attorney could easily run up fees higher than that. So if you win, you still lose.

However, the company is also having to pay their lawyer. They are paying a higher rate than you are, trust me. So the longer the case lasts, the more they have to pay their attorney. At some point, settling the case makes economic sense for them.

I have an FRS so I don't have a copy of the Subaru warranty, but I would be surprised if it doesn't include an arbitration provision. Sometimes the arbitration provision is mandatory, sometimes it is optional. It is a faster process, so there are less attorneys fees, and the results can be good for the consumer. Many insurance companies gave up on arbitration because they were always losing.

Try to find a local lawyer to help. A local law school will often have a free legal clinic where you can get advice. Also, small claims court is really friendly to consumers. Many don't allow the company to use a lawyer, so the field is more even. Also, contact your state consumer advocate, find them on line. I have to believe that you state is pretty consumer friendly.

You have some good arguments in your favor. What you need are facts, that an expert can testify to in court, about why the engine failed and why the failure is a defect that the warranty would cover.

Again, good luck and other than moral support, don't look for legal advice on a car forum;)

Really? I have only heard of this happening on cars that are tracked and cars with FI. It appears that it is heat related and the culprit is the teflon insulators on the DI.

I tell my kids all the time that they should not be posting things on the internet (especially facebook and youtube) because it can come back to bite them in the a$$ later. This may be a case of that. Has Mike competed in the FT86 challenge series? Even if that is not wheel to wheel racing, it is time versus time for a title which makes it a competitive event. Do not get me wrong. I feel Subaru and Toyota should honor the warranty on the drivetrain until this problem is resolved but I can also see where they are going to grab onto this as an out.

I guess these cars are not the track toys that the manufacturers advertised them to be.

I would suggest that you pay them to pull the fuel filter out of the car and inspect for the filter coming apart. I have been thinking about it lately and I am starting to wonder if there is a batch of bad fuel pumps where the mesh filter was improperly glued together, resulting in the premature degradation as seen in the photos posted in another thread, and doesn't have anything to do with e85 as people are currently speculating. I am basing that on the fact that don have probably been running e85 longer than anyone and his filters have not come apart as far as I know. Its a long shot but if the filter did come apart you definitely have a stronger leg to stand on arguing that the pump filter coming apart was ultimately the root cause of both engine failures. I would definitely have Irvine Subaru take it out and inspect it you could perhaps be there when they do it and take photos. This way if it ever went to court Subaru would have to prove the engine failed from some other reason than the filter. Worth a shot, good luck.

Sub'd

I don't understand why people have pictures of their cars racing, in their avatar and signatures. This is "evidence" that you are racing your cars.

That being said, I agreed with the above post about the commercials....call Subaru and tell them it's false advertisement and you will sue.

straight up tell (and do it) them you will hire your own investigators and contact a lawyer for the matter. What ever you do dont take it to an independent shop without privet investigators. trust me they will demand that Subaru is involved in the investigations. Also i would ask them for proof that your driving caused the issue. Request for a health check print out with freeze frame data. The freeze frame will show the speed the car was at, the RPM's, coolant temp, fuel trim and oil temp.

Your best bet its to get someone thats handled cases like this.

rac·ing:
1: to compete in a race

2: to go, move, or function at top speed or out of control <people racing for safety> <struggled to sleep as his mind raced>

3: to revolve too fast under a diminished load


race:
1 chiefly Scottish : the act of running


2 a : a strong or rapid current of water flowing through a narrow channel
b : a watercourse used industrially
c : the current flowing in such a course



3 a : a set course or duration of time
b : the course of life



4 a : a contest of speed
b plural : a meeting in which several races (as for horses) are run
c : a contest or rivalry involving progress toward a goal <pennant race>

5
: a track or channel in which something rolls or slides

Just my two cents

This right here was the only thing that took my dealership from "we aren't going to do anything for you but fix the issue we broke" to "When can we schedule you for a complimentary full 3M clear bra for your full front end, mirrors, door handles, door frame, windshield and headlights" when they drove my car into a parked car and damaged the front bumper cover.

What is said on these forums hold weight with any dealer who has half a brain when it comes to PR.

If you consider exhaust as power train modification then mine is even more stock. All I have done is drop in HKS airfilter and sound tube delete. I have the first stage of the issue Mike pointed out which is the popping, firecracker sound when I start the car or light acceleration after the car is warmed up.

I hope this all works out. I really have no advice to contribute, sorry Mike.

After reading this thread I would be inclined to go for the suggestion from 'Porsche'.
A compromise may well suit them, rather than conflict and adverse publicity?

If nothing else, perhaps you might negotiate with Subaru to sell you a new engine at discount, with the proviso that you give them your old engine. If Subaru is smart, they'll want that engine to study. But, maybe they've already seen all they need to see.

Im thinking even the non track junkies will start seeing problems with the DI system over the next few months or years even with the new flash. I hope im wrong but over time I think the heat will damage it.

Especially since we have all been running without the new flash for a year now and dealers have yet to push it out. Id imagine we have already built up some damage though its all speculation at this point.

You need to take it to them, smear them if you have to on autoblog and other car websites/magazines.

You might want to ask the dealer if they will cut you a deal on the labor to diagnose the cause. It seems to me that knowing for sure what the problem is puts you in a better position then assuming it's the same one.

Well, if this proves to be a widespread issue on these engines how hard and how much $ would an aftermarket solution be?

Checking in and subscribing because my car is at 3k miles and already started the popping at startup and intake backfire under load. Full stock. I took it to the toyota dealer and they said they couldn't reproduce and that without a CEL they couldn't do anything. Don't race or track the car. I can't wait for the damn thing to blow up so I can tow it to their lot and have it dumped in the service center and tell the service guy to stuff it.

This whole thread is scaring the bejezzus out of me. If normal DDr's like me start experiencing this without doing any "racing"...talk about a letdown :(

I DD mine, drive hard almost daily (redlining multiple gears), and at 15k miles now. I haven't had these issues but have had 2 occasions of idle dip to ~400/500 rpm. Will be watching closely, especially since ambient temps hitting 90+ already.

Call toyota/scion or the regional manager. Make sure its clear that you only daily drive the car.

Go talk to an attorney in your state. Don't listen to internet advice on this one. In my opinion, it should be covered unless you altered something that led to the failure. It might take some time, but it seems like you have a good case (I didn't read the whole thread).

Good luck!

This kind of stuff does make me wonder why I am tracking this car. I wish Honda would make a competitor, the BRZ would be up for sale within days. :shrug:

I have zero concerns tracking a stock engine 150,000 mile Honda but I have to wonder about a 22,000 mile Subaru.. wonderful.

:word:

Is there a way for us to come up with a solution to the heat? Oil cooler? Bigger radiator?

My sentiment is identical...

It's not worry of getting service, it's worry about owning a car that has what potentially may be a big issue that will require many hours of service, heartache and worry.

Sounds like it's just the teflon bands or some sort of gasketing not holding up, a heavier duty solution or a redesigned injector should take care of it unless I'm missing something.

The car, like most cars, is warrantied against defects under normal usage. Track use, auto-x, racing, etc. are not considered "normal usage" regardless of what the brochure or advertising says. The BRZ/FR-S also has a nice "black box" of data that can be pulled to see how the car has been driven. Hit the track button in a GT-R, Mustang or Corvette and then try and get warranty coverage...

And for the rest of you "worrying" that your street driven car may develop an issue that may or may-not ever occur and may or may-not even be an issue need to relax, don't be a auto-hypochondriac.

Comments like these make me wish I kept my RSX.:(