they actually made awd integers for the Japanese market lol those parts plus some awd crv parts have been used to make an awd pikes peak ITR which was then converted to RWD.

27k with ac? Only overpriced a couple grand then. Have you ever driven one, especially a stock non fucked up one?

If they made a RWD Integra, that would have been it! This one didn't have AC and marked up since it was the first year in the US. I drove my buddy's black Type R that was lightly modded before but it was around town so nothing serious.

RWD Integra = S2000

Since we're playing that game, add the NSX since that was RWD too! ;)

RWD Integra=RWD Integra

http://px6.streetfire.net/0001/06/46/1396064_600.jpg

^^ That's Blake's car. There's a MR ITR out there too...

Not derpy derp Blake, right?! j/k :bellyroll::bellyroll:

http://content.draftexpress.com/gall...1238185594.jpg

that video sums this entire thread.
the ITR was a great car 15 years ago but
there are new technologies now such as DI, better tires, materials
and WAY more efficient engines that would make this an unfair match.
Both toyota an Subaru have proven themselves in the racing world
and them combined will make an amazing car.

this fr-s/brz will be another classic like the new GT-R is.
so buy em, enjoy em, take care of em, don't rice em cuz they'll be worth
good money 20 years from now.

you also forget that time has a couple negatives too such as CAFE standards are much higher, being good on fuel is huge now given gas prices and a lot more safetly equipment must come standard which personally I believe it was easier to make a fast car (budget friendly) back in the day

what about a 1.8 making 200hp is inferior or less effecient compared to a 2.0 making 200 hp? or its double wishbone suspension compared to struts? or the frs having a higher cog? the match isnt unfair. with what we know which is largely speculation at this point i would be willing to bet the itr is faster in every category than the frs. and also i think you are using the term classic way too loosely.

:thumbup:

I can only hope that the frs/brz earns the distinction of being the second car ever that I will never sell.

I hope they turn out to be a rwd ITR :) that would make me very happy. I can say I would never sell the ITR to buy an frs though. I'd regret it way too much regardless of how the frs turns out.

haha I left the "cons of time" out on purpose.
bottom line is RWD>FWD period.

would i rather have rwd over fwd? yes but is it better period? no

Not period lol, but RWD FTW

Thats why no super car was made under a fwd right

its also why the cobalt ss destroys the s2k in the scca runoffs or maybe why the mini changed the touring car races overnight. or why the ms3 is better than the ae86....all rhetoric aside i still dont understand what makes fwd cars understeer on off camber downhill turns than a rwd car

it damn better be with the years of technology and a turbo but unlike the ae86 however it will never be a timeless car or considered a classic

the ae86 is not a timeless car. it looks like it was from the 80s but i guess ill agree with the classic thing. my point was that rwd>fwd isnt an absolute term like people are using it.

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If you dont get it shown by Japanese pro driver on that video then you dont get it, its same thing why you dont get why people cares about higher rev limit?what more can I do? maybe a picture illustration may help? if this dont work I dont know other way?

Understeer going down hill (NO:cry: bad)
http://i223.photobucket.com/albums/d...understeer.gif

if the Mazda speed 3 with a turbo is not better than the 26yrs old AE86 a car that has 1.6liter 112bhp Jujiro Matsuda will roll over his grave

i cant even believe he compared a car thats 26yrs old vs car thats less than 5 years that has more advance tech & more power kinda stupid :iono:




say that to millions of people from Japan,UK & USA who go yearly to AE86 festivals.

http://i223.photobucket.com/albums/d...estival093.jpg
http://i223.photobucket.com/albums/d...lvin/p2-15.jpg

say that to pro drivers who owns a AE86
Nobuteru Taniguchi
Keiichi tsuchiya
Ueo Katsuhiro
Ken Gushi
Alex Phifer
Taka Aono
Manabu Orido
Akira Iida

I dont see people doing a mazdaspeed 3 festival all around the world

Nice pics... now Imagine all of those are FT86s... Maybe in 25 years?

you have proved that there is one fwd car that is worse than one rwd car. i get that but it is a far stretch from rwd > fwd period. do you see what im saying?

i also understand that a fwd may understeer going downhill in this situation you have set up but what i dont get is why you think it will understeer more than a rwd car might

how is it stupid? what is stupid is saying blanket statements like rwd >fwd period and then thinking im out of line for disproving them. according to that criteria it makes perfect sense to compare the two. people racing/drifting a car doesnt mean its timeless. it doesnt even mean they think its timeless. and if that was enough for you, half those people dont even drive corollas anymore. ill admit its becoming a classic but gatherings dont make a car classic. there is an annual pontiac aztec rally. timeless? geo metro club. timeless?

i had an ae86 for years and i liked it but it wasnt really anything special

finally you understand :clap:, find my post that says a rear wheel drive car will not understeer more than a fwd. all my illustration and videos only illustrates a fwd understeering on a downhill turn like what I say on my post, your the only one who assume this was a rwd vs fwd.

If you want to post why you think a AE86 is not a classic or timeless make another topic not here.

find my post that I say RWD> FWD, man read all my post again im not against fwd non of my post say fwd sucks all my post was illustrating understeer on a downhill like what i posted. you are the one who made it a RWD vs FWD & i say stupid cuz it is stupid to compared a newer modern car fwd vs a old car rwd, I know ae86 is not for everyone and I can understand if its not for you thats why you sold it, maybe its not fruity enough or not up to your standards but thats on you.

yeah i dont mean to be attacking you if thats what it sounds like. when you said this i kinda inferred that you were talking about only fwd since you bothered to mention that fact. i als assumed that when you quoted someone saying rwd > fwd period and then said thats why they dont make fwd supercars that you agreed with the statement made. i dont think i was really out of line for jumping to either of those conclusions.

at the end of the day is still dont see how this car is going to be sportier or faster or whatever were measuring when compared to the itr

I'm sorry, but there are only 2 performance focused situations where "RWD > FWD" is NOT true. Reason #1: when I'm driving on a slick surface. Reason #2: when we're talking about 100-300hp turds. There is a reason that the term FWD Supercar is an oxymoron. (Waits for someone to link some exception the the rule.)

When it comes down to ideal track conditions (anything but ice) FWD has zero performance advantages over RWD. With equal power, handling, tires, weight distribution, etc, a RWD car will handle as good or better than a FWD car. At 200hp, AWD FWD RWD doesn't matter, the cars are just powerful enough to have fun in, but not powerful enough to really maximize their (AWD & RWD) potential. The more power you add, to both cars, the more noticeable the RWD's advantage over the FWD becomes.

ITR's were (and still are) badass cars. I used to love going to ITR racedays and meets with my Honda buddies with me in my Talon and a few other DSMers. It was a really fun rivalry we had back then, but a 250fwhp ITR wasn't touching my stock RX7. Let alone a 350fwhp against my 350rwhp RX7.

All that said, I don't think the FR-S will beat the ITR in any performance categories right out of the box. I just hope the FRS platform is one that improves as you throw more power at it.

I completely disagree with this.

Even at 200hp, I can put ALL my power down with my AWD while in a FWD or RWD car I'd be breaking traction with the tires.

Heck, you can have traction issues with a 90hp FWD car unless its running huge R-compounds on a perfectly dry day or something insane like that.

im aware that in most cases a rwd car is going to perform better but it isnt always the case but to play devils advocate a little more with the scenario you mentioned with everything else (power, handling, weight distribution) a fwd will win every time simply because of the minimal drive train losses. do i think fwd is better than rwd? absolutely not but its crazy how people have these crazy expectations simply because of the design choices of this car. i think we are more or less in agreement but i still think there are other times when a fwd has advantages like left foot braking for brake balancing or front to rear grip levels in low traction conditions

I agree that RWD isnt always better than FWD but for performance and driving pleasure RWD is better than everything IMO (everything is subject to taste)

However saying the 86 is not a timeless car is crazy since all the stuff you mentioned is great and all but the 86 itself is a part of car culture now year from now people will look back and think of how the 86 was a great car, how it help the drift craze, initial d and of course how its spirit inspired the ft86

people will not remember those other cars and while they may have their own events and club they have had no impact on car culture other than being the ugliest mass production car ever (Aztek)

Thats ok No harm No foul, On the super car I was just stating the fact that no super car was made under a fwd config, I know you'll jump on that quick and loose focus on the debate thats why you added the ae86 vs the MS3 cuz, you know how proud I am on my ae86 and knowing a fwd car is faster better will hurt my ego right? but you didnt count on the years and tech between both cars.

that wasnt the intention. in fact i really liked the corolla when i had it but going back to school was expensive and i couldnt afford two cars. the 40 miles each way on the freeway in a gutted 23 year old car with crazy suspension wasnt as favorable as the sc400 was so it had to go. now im in the same condition with my miata and my ls430. the ms3 is a better car than the ae86 but id rather have the corolla.

classic? maybe but not timeless. the car looks old. people will get together to celebrate any and every car if you look. jersey shore is a much bigger part of our culture than gone with the wind but i dont think we would argue which is timeless so im not quite convinced that social importance is a measure of timelessness. the car looks dated so i dont think its timeless. not like the etypes, db7s, 507s and anything pinninfarina ever touched

o yeah here is an article back in 2006 the 85-86 toyota corolla was part of it, i remmeber this cuz people say they should have added the Datsun 510 on the list.
http://www.hemmings.com/hsx/stories/...feature15.html

I can't believe we are still having this discussion.

FWD vs RWD wasn't even the original topic.

Once I buy an FR-S/BRZ I'll compare the two objectively (driving enjoyment/feel) and by the numbers (autocross/lap times).

Like Fatoni, I won't be surprised if the ITR turns in faster times though. It's lighter, with similar HP, and likely better gearing, plus lighter wheels, etc.

I have an AWD Talon, been racing it for about a decade all the way from stock weight and power to the >400whp 2600# version it is now. From my experience with my AWD Talon and RWD RX7, the AWD does not handle better than RWD at all. It is more forgiving on mistakes, but the thing about AWD that I dislike is having to "hook" the turns. If your timing isn't perfect things can go wrong. I believe the reason people think AWD handles better is because it powers out of the corners faster than the other two, but it's no where near as fun to drive as the RWD.

That is unless we're talking about Rally Car racing, I'm referring to racing on asphalt.

That's obviously not a stock ITR either.

You're best argument should be "lets not forget that you put a great white shark (tsuchiya) in his natural habitat (ae86) and set it loose against its prey."

If anything Tsuchiya's master ability of the AE86 is what makes his car fast.

I completely left fun out of the equation. Although with the correct differential setup AWD can be surprisingly fun.

However, AWD is cheaper on the tire budget in regards to fun :p It is the safe choice of course, especially if you mostly have your fun in mountain roads.

the awd being cheaper is a little subjective as it kinda adds weight. i bet my miata is lighter on tires when compared to an sti in relation to fun

I went through rear tires on my Miata FAR faster than I did on my STi ( yes, little i, it was a 2004 ;P )

I'm all for rear wheel drive, but I'd take a brilliantly set up FWD (e.g. ITR, 7th gen Celica GT-S, Mini, Megane) over a poorly setup RWD car (Too numerous shitty examples to mention) any day.

I am a proponent of RWD and will tell you that in theory it is the better dynamic (for performance, hooning and enjoyment) all else being equal, but It's not fair to throw a blanket statement over the whole situation to form an absolute RWD > FWD. You ought to put an * near that statement.

As for AWD, well... that's a tricky one. It depends on your definition of handling. In most cases, a properly setup AWD car will be faster than a RWD one. Better? Depends on your perspective. IMO, most AWD cars ought to go play in the dirt and snow, but that's the way I see it. AWD cars can generate a ridiculous amount of grip, and were it allowed in the rules, even F1 cars would be AWD. Fact. Ideally, a light, mid-engined, rear wheel biased awd car would be the "best" compromise I could think of.

Faster is better, but faster isn't always "better". That statement would be lost on many, but for most here would get it, and that in fact is the reason we are registered here anyway. So IMHO, it best be that we get back to the topic at hand (ITR vs FT-86) and evaluate on merit rather than delving into yet another pointless argument. Savvy?

NSX > Civic Type R > 350z > S2000 > Integra Type R @ tsukuba

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Tsuchiya can bring out the best in any car.