Unfortunately, the new car smell has disappeared and the Little Trees New Car Scent is not cutting it. I only had the car for 6 months and I got a pretty good deal, so I wouldn't lose much if I traded it in. This is only something I am considering because I have the money and I do drive for fun, but this is definitely not something that I need.

I was watching a video on YouTube the other day and they mentioned that the average age of a BRZ/86 owner is around 35 and I am assuming a lot of members on this forum are younger than that, including myself. A lot has changed for me since I had the FRS. I am no Transporter, but I would like to think that my driving skills have improved and I would really be able to push the BRZ and enjoy it.

I have considered other vehicles such as the new 2019 Miata RF, but I heard the Miata has a lot of body roll. Most of the other vehicles are out of my price range and don't handle as well. I care more about handling than raw power. Upgrading or tuning the Si is an option, but I don't want to spend money on upgrades when that money could offset the hit I would take if I decide to trade in the Si.

I'm curious, what does sites like kbb say t you can sell the car for? It would be unlikely a private party will pay cash for a used 2018 not knowing what they will be getting into. But in any case what is the difference between what you paid out the door and private and dealer sale. My guess is that you will be paying premium to switch cars this soon. But I could be wrong.

Sell the Civic, but a used BRZ limited, pocket the difference.

You're driving fwd wrong.

https://gfycat.com/thiswelltodoharrier

When my Civic broke (95), there were NO cars being manufactured that I could afford *and* interested me in the slightest.

So I bought a mobile apartment and went road tripping with bicycles.

The 86 finally checked all the boxes in stock form. About bleeding time.

I know how to drive. I’m not talking about me though. When the front wheels loose traction the car will go straight which easier for an inexperienced driver to deal with than having the rear want to come around.

1) Torque dip is something complained about by people who don't know how to downshift.
These people belong in a powerful Mustang that is more forgiving of being in the wrong gear constantly.

2) What is rev hang?

3) Amazing.

Why did you sell the FRS ?

It was automatic, duh 🤣

Your not wrong :D

Torque dip is complained about by people who don't want to be boy racer pulling to redline just to pass a mini van. ;)

Rev hang is when you push the clutch to upshift and the revs hang for bit before dropping off. This crap would drive me nuts. Glad the Twins don't do this.

Torque dip is a non issue except for guys that like to scream the MT is the bestest and anybody that doesn't think so is a moron until they actually have to use it then whine that they shouldn't have to shift to make power.

If you have to redline to pass mini vans you are doing things wrong.

Has nothing to do with MT vs AT. I’ve never owned a car (or truck) where the power is good and then goes stagnant for nearly 3000rpm. Sure you can shift around it but the window is way to big to easily ignore. Maybe people that don’t complain haven’t driven many performance cars in the past or are just apologists. E85 has almost entirely solved the dip for me and it’s a night and day change.

Nearly 3,000 RPM? Dude get your car checked. It is under 1,000 and lasts a tenth of a second if you rev through it.

Funny how the whiners always fall back on how great of drivers they are and if you don't have a problem you must suck, have never driven "performance" cars before or are just making excuses for the car. Many of us have no issue with it. How is that so hard to accept? Don't have to "drive around" anything.

Funny how you maintain that you have driven all these performance cars but never run into it before when it is actually very common.
https://www.ft86club.com/forums/show...79&postcount=8

Ugh MT best but should not have to shift gears. Bad car. Bad.

Yeah, for most people by year 2-3 the new car smell had died for various reasons, maybe farting too much.

Civic negatives:
1. too many on the road (clones). Some people don't care if their next door neighbor drives the same car as they do (its all personal preference). How is demand going to be in 3-6 years , even on a $18k new car ?
2. cheaply made/ planned interior
3. driving dynamics ( I could write a book on this, but I'll refrain).
4. Its usually more cost effective ( if you keep the car 3-4 years, or even 10 years) to buy a new Civic, then to try and find a clean used 3-6 year old Civic to save some coin ( still $10-12k, dealers usually hold price/value fairly firm since it's a Honda-higher demand and low cost car), in most counties.

Civic positives :
1. mpg (usually good, most models /years)
2. cost ( lower cost then most cars

** The fun to drive element , is the variable that a car either does or doesn't have. That criteria can be on the upper level list for most people (possibly higher then MPG or cost of ownership). If it truly is MPG, get a Insight, Prius, Leaf.

Should I Trade In My Si?
 

When did a fall back on how great of a driver I am. I can accept that some people aren’t bothered by it. But you can’t just write it off as a nonissue. Torque dips may be common, I’ve been lucky enough to never own one or drive one until the FRS. I was warned by some of my autox friends that I may not like the car as a DD because of this but after driving the car the pros outweigh the cons. But that doesn’t mean it’s not there and not annoying.

BTW, it isn’t just 1000RPM.

Edit: just looked at that list of cars with torque dips. I’ve driven the AP1 and AP2 and although the AP1 is boring until 6k, it doesn’t feel like a “dip”. It just feels like a B16A until 6k. I would never own an AP1 specifically for this reason. The AP2 didn’t have a perceived dip (even if you can see one on paper) when I drove it. The Twins have a very perceivable dip though.

Porsches have a dip, but they also to have like more than twice as much power and the dip doesn't last as long so I don't think anyone notices.

S2000's dip occurs right before VTEC kicks in so its not noticeable either, plus the car has no torque to begin with so its already accelerating modestly.

I drove a Boxster for about 6 weeks while I rebuilt the engine in my FRS and I never noticed a dip. I think your right, it's got enough power even when in a dip to not be that noticeable. On the AP1 it's bla all the way to 6k. I would have put the AP2 on my list of cars if it had a back seat. I would never be able to deal with the AP1 though.

This is quote possibly the most idiotic thing I've ever read here. And that's saying a lot.
I've never ever had to pull to red line to pass a mini-van. Vans go like snails, I pass them in the blink of an eye.
I sometimes wonder what planet some of these posters live on.

A PLANET WITH NO TORQ DIP YOOOOOOOO

I couldn't get to work today because the torque dip was so deep my car stopped.

Just kidding: I didn't go to work today because I have the day off.

Should I Trade In My Si?
 

I will pretend you didn’t really take my comment literally and you’re just trolling.

Get a 5.0 Mustang

Should I Trade In My Si?
 

Funny thing about this community is anytime you have a critique it’s like you are saying the whole car is ruined and you should be driving one of these options:
Prius
Mustang
Civic

These are my complains:
Torque dip (fixable)
Doors don’t stay open (fixable)
Sound like crap (not fixable, this is obviously my opinion)
Different rattle every day of the week (fixable daily until you just say to hell with it)

None of those problems would steer me away from the car. This is by far the most entertaining car I’ve ever owned. But I’m not going to be a fanboy and pretend it doesn’t have any flaws. The OP used to own an FRS and asked if it still has a torque dip. The fact is it does. Saying someone should downshift is irrelevant. You can dodge the dip all you want but it’s still there and that is all the OP asked.

If I had the choice between a 2018 Civic Si or a Twin I’d take the Twin hands down. I’d probably take it over the Type-R too.

Interesting to note, the 2009 s2000 with an msrp of 35.5k would cost 42k in today's dollars as per.
https://www.usinflationcalculator.com

I think a lot of this, ”Subaru should have done this or I prefer that" talk lacks prespective. Kind of pretentious to assume to know what a car company should and should not do in a market were the wrong decision costs millions. We can all pretend to want something but until we put our money where our mouth is it's all talk. Would most people pay 5k more to have no dip? One would think that Subaru crunched some numbers and projected sales didn't justify the cost...look where the s2000 ended up....great car, but at the end the consumers stopped buying it and now it's history....
My 2 cents

S2k is sweet, but like most cars we can sit back and critique it down to the nitty gritty and move on . The process makes us feel good , about our perspective …. and the car(s) we drive / own.

For the short bit of time that I was driving my car with the torque dip I learned to use it to my benefit, which you could do in the twisties.

Yes, the BRZ has shortcomings. All vehicles do in one sort of way or another. Some shortcomings may have nothing to do with the vehicle itself but could be operational, financial or artifice based.

At times I have doubts that I got the right vehicle. Initially I was going to make a move on a Honda CTR, as that seemed to be the best option due to the best reviews and the fact that it does not have a power issue. First and foremost availability is still tight, and the ADM (Additional Dealer Markup) most specifically in California makes this car not a viable option. Most places will not even let you take it for a test drive unless you put a deposit down. Why would I spend anywhere from 5 - 20K over MSRP for a glorified Civic that is flat out big & butt ugly? So, it performs well, so do other cars, but it certainly is not worth close to 50K. There are better options at that price point.

I am building the BRZ into what I want, and I still have not exceeded what I would have paid for the other vehicles that I was looking at. Will the BRZ ever be a Porsche, whatever I do to it? No. It will be mine and made for my desires. It is what it is, a sports car. Sports cars have always historically been a bit "raw", that was the whole point.

I would proffer that even most of the current Porsches at this point in time are more a "luxury sports vehicle", brand new they are not accessible to many people, and it has been getting more so over the years. I owned a Porsche at one point in time, it was a lower end one, and even then the 911's back then were very different than what is being sold today.

And yes no matter what I will do to the BRZ, it will still rattle and bang around, though I have to admit some of that has dissipated with some of the mods I have done.

So, if you are really interested in a sports car, the BRZ is it. You can enjoy it stock or think of it as a blank canvas for whatever your vision may be.

C'est la vie!

YMMV.

Inflation can't easily be applied to all products though. Just look at TV's for example. They don't go up with inflation they have gone the other direction. Cars are similar. You get way more technology and quality in a car today for what you would have spent in the 90s. For example I had a 1995 Integra GS-R (94hp/liter, 8200RPM redline with no annoying holes in the powerband) that had a MSRP of 21400 back then. If I use your calculation that would be 35500 today. But in reality 35500 would get a WAY nicer car than my old Integra. A comparable car to the Integra today would be the Civic Si. A 2018 Civic Si is night and day nicer than the 95 GSR and it's only 24100. If the S2000 sold today I doubt it would sell for $42k.

Emissions regulations seemed to really kill the old NA, high HP/L high revving japanese engines with super linear power bands. Today they have all gone to small displacement FI engines with lower redlines. Now that the emission standards have been dialed back a bit it will be interesting to see if the auto industry follows or if they play it safe and stick with the Obama standards figuring that the next administration will just rachet the standards back up. Our engine is impressive with 100HP/L under Obama emissions regulations.

Should I Trade In My Si?
 

Inflation also doesn't mean shit when wages haven't kept up with it.

1995
Median household income: 53,330
BMW M3: 37,950 - 71% of median income

2017
Median household income: 59,039
BMW M4: 65,400 - 111% of median income

The car got 56% more expensive.
Cars are more expensive now when you look at the real buying power people have in our economy. My parents were able to buy brand new cars/ barely used luxury cars every 3ish years while feeding 2 kids. I have 2 kids and can't do that and I arguably have a much 'better' job they had when I was my kid's age.

Wow. Another torque dip thread. Can we please argue about it for 4 pages with everyone saying something to the effect of "you cant drive," "should have bought a mustang or camaro" or "it's common, lots of cars have it."

Just downshift or drive through it, it's not noticeable.

YES!!!!

I see your point but you can hardly compare the E36 to the F80 other than they are both called the M3. A more fair comparison would be a 95 Accord to a 2018 Accord where the car hasn't practically jumped into another class. Or a 95 MX5 vs 2018 MX5. BMW in general has gone nuts with their pricing.

The OP specifically asked if it still existed. He didn't ask if you could drive around it. That's kind of obvious.

You are obviously not familiar with my work, sir. :lol:

A quick look at your post history and now I see. Hahaha

Actually that is the best quote, just to get some pull coming out of a redlight you have to rev the mess out of this thing. If you have an exhaust its even worse because everyone thinks you are trying to race them.


ACE headers or Catless UEL headers help out off the line a lot. And getting a tune can help the raucous off the line noise smooth out

Should I Trade In My Si?
 

1995
Median household income: 53,330
BMW M3: 37,950 - 71% of median income
Honda accord: 14,940 - 28%
Mazda Miata: 17,895 - 33%

2017
Median household income: 59,039
BMW M4: 65,400 - 111% of median income
Honda Accord: 22,455 - 38%
(Honda Civic: 18,740 - 32%)
Mazda Miata: 24,915 - 42%

The cars got 56%, 36%, and 27% more expensive.

Even when you consider that the Civic is now about equivalent in size as the Accord was then, it still costs 15% more to own the car.
Cars. Are. More. Expensive. Period.

I never said they were not more expensive. My point was you can't simply apply inflation to a car because their target audience can completely change. For example if you applied inflation to that 1995 Accord it would be 24700 and the MX5 would be 28700. I threw out the Accord and the Miata because their target hasn't changed that much. Like you said, the Accord has gotten much larger with the Civic sort of filling in behind it and yet still didn't keep up with inflation. The M3 is kind of a special case though.

Factoring in the household income is an eye opener though. It seems like food has been hit with inflation the most. I'm a runner and decided to start packing my own lunch and using my lunch break for a run and I'm saving $200-$250 per month doing this. So it's a win win. I remember when you could get lunch for $5, now I'm lucky to get lunch for $12. I'm no economist but printing money and keeping interest rates artificially low for so long seems like a recipe for disaster in the long run.

It's common that people can't drive a Mustang or Camaro.

Oh, really? Too much power under the curve or what?!?!?!