I guess legally you may be out of luck here - unless you still have some of the gas left and you are willing to pay several thousand Dollars for an in-depth Analysis at an Independent laboratory, with an unknown result.


However I do have a suspicion how all this talk of diesel/non-diesel and "bad fuel" might have come about. Some backstory:




I am regularly ordering large deliveries of marine fuel in your area.
Since we are speaking of several thousand metric tonnes per delivery,
there are representative samples taken, which are then analyzed in an independent laboratory like SGS, Inspectorate, ect.


Think of it like a Blackstone labs oil analysis, just with more parameters.


So, what is happening since a few months is that we are experiencing random problems during burning of These fuels, even though the regular analyses are completely okay.


So far, this happened with fuels taken in the area around Florida, as well as New York and Balboa.


Enter the gas-chromatographic/mass-spectrometic analysis on vacuum distillation (basically ripping the fuel apart into ist very contents on a molecular level, and quantifying the contents, for some 15.000 dollars a shot):


Turns out that most of the oil majors started increasing the FAME (Fatty Acid Methyl Esters) content in all of their fuels (marine fuels, consumer gasoline, industrial blends, ...), right in the refineries.




In one case, the German air force even had to detain their jets because this stuff was found to be present in the jet fuel (delivered via a NATO pipeline...).


FAME is basically a mixture of fat and alcohol, typically found in bio-derived fuels, like bio-diesel.
It is cheaper to produce than oil-based products and does not originate from the regular cracking-processes in refineries.


Legally, they are allowed to do this (as long as they sell their stuff as per ISO specifications like ISO8217), but the more of this stuff is mixed in, the more likely we have found catastrophic engine failure to be.
Does not matter if we are talking about 2-stroke or 4-stroke engines, diesel or gasoline.


If there is enough FAME-content in a fuel batch, some automated testing methods may even mistake this blend as diesel instead of petrol/gasoline.


What we have seen so far is laquering of the fuel System components (high pressure fuel pumps, fuel lines, filters) as well as loss of cylinder lubrication due to the high alcohol content, and extensive wear on all effected components until the point of catastrophie failure.




Sorry for the wall of text, this just came to my mind, as I have had this interesting discussion last week with the Chief chemist at SGS.




Maybe you can have a look at the internals of the replaced fuel pump?
If it does look clogged up, or it was painted with shiny enamel, you might have something to support this theory.

We need a second "more thanks" button.

Thanks for the reply. They did not give me the old fuel pump, and I don't think they even replaced it. The $161.59 in parts is broken down as follows:
4 spark plugs at $18.99 each
gas $20.00
00053-00100 top eng/induct sv $35.88
00289-1PF14 pressurized efi 1 $29.75

What are the "top eng/induct sv" and "pressurized efi 1"? Based on google searches, it seems these are just cleaning products.

So basically you paid 1300 for new plugs and a fuel injector/top end clean.

Maybe call the state inspector back and see if they will take your sample of the gas to see how it tests?

Actually closer to $1400, to be precise it was $1386.95. Based on google searches, it seems that "fuel injector/top end cleaning" simply means putting an additive into the fuel.

I do understand that it is difficult and expensive ($700) to change the spark plugs in an FRS but it still seems like a lot.

So many questions...

1) If the fuel was not bad, why wouldn't my car start? The inspector said he gets at least 10 calls when there is bad gas and this time no other complaints about this station were made. I will ask him to check the sample I received from Toyota.

2) Can the shop truly detect bad gas, bad spark plugs, etc., or were they just guessing?

3) Even assuming it was necessary to raise the engine and fuel tank to change the plugs and clean the top end/fuel injector, how long does that take? Is $1121.85 for labor reasonable?

I could see the shop detecting diesel or water in the gas but that is it. I doubt they removed the tank to drain it. Probably just removed the rear seat (easy) and then pumped the fuel out via the access holes. $700 seems to be a typical rate for the plugs regardless of how ridiculous it is. So take $700 off the $1400 for the plugs and your left with $700 to drain the fuel and a top end cleaning. Exactly what they did to clean I don't know. Probably some in the tank, some in the vacuum lines and then pumped that injector cleaner through the injectors.

I'm glad I do all my own work. I've saved enough over the years to buy an entire car.

Well, now, pauldz, I have a feeling that you are thrashing this after action report a bit too much. Or, to put it another way, doing an autopsy on the autopsy.

Yes, that sample you have could be analyzed (torn apart) by GC (gas chromatography) or HPLC (High Pressure Liquid Chromatography) ...... IF the chemist had an idea of what they were looking for (like water or diesel).

Like @Trollhart mentioned, a mass spectrometer could tell you more than you ever wanted to know about the sample.

However, the first problem with the results of that an extensive of analysis might just reflect errors in the sampling technique (not representative) or the maintaining of the sample after it was taken.

It wouldn't hurt to ask the station rep to have your sample analyzed, although I doubt they will do it (since they didn't take the sample).

How can the dealership detect "bad gas". Well, unless they have a lab in their back room, they probably just did a visual and sniff test. A simple test kit can test for alcohol or water in the gasoline ....... maybe they used one of those ..??

As far as the fuel system "cleaning", usually they just inject some cleaner into the fuel system, just before the injectors and dump the rest of it in the gas tank.

My point is that what is done is done. I would suggest that you just chalk it up to an "experience" and move forward and enjoy driving your car ......;)


humfrz

I would handle this differently.

1. Find out who the owner of record is, go to florida state corporation search website. Make sure you get a list of the corporation officers (and the address to serve them)

2. Write a letter of demand to the gas station owner. Include copies of your receipt from the gas station, and the invoice of repair. Tell him that the gas sample was analyzed and found to be bad. Send this letter certified mail return receipt.

3. Wait 30 days for a response. If he responds telling you to go F. yourself go to step 4. If there's no response go to step 4.

4. File a small claims lawsuit for the amount of repairs, the cost of the gas you paid at the pump, any car rental expense, loss work, etc (but not punitive). Also subpoena the dealership senior mechanic that worked on the car. He's going to be your expert witness. Make sure you have the sheriff/police/court server one of the officers of the company that owns that mobile station and also serve the mechanic to have him/her testify to the damages in their expert opinion.

If this is a mom and pop station, they probably only have 2 or 3 corporate officers and none of them should be attorney. In small claims court, you cannot bring an attorney nor can they. So make sure you have the list of corporate officers the day of the hearing because if an attorney shows up or anyone that is not an officer of the corporation, make a motion for summary judgment. You win.

Before you file the suit, I would have an honest conversation with the dealership and tell them you are going to sue the gas station. Inform them that you are going to subpoena their mechanic to testify on your behalf.

Now here's the cool part, if you lose because the defendant has the evidence showing it was not bad gas and that you got ripped off by the dealership, this is also great.
You then request transcript from small claims and all the defendant evidence to the contrary that the gas was not bad. You then turn all that in to Toyota for reconsideration under warranty since 1. There was no bad gas. 2. There was nothing found that you did wrong at the time and this was a bad diagnosis which cost you money. If they won't pay sue the dealership for breach of contract, fraud, etc.

Things to consider. Anything else wrong with your vehicle may get blamed on the "bad gas" that happened already. So you are still not out of the woods. If you sue the dealership, you probably won't be going back there again so if that's the only dealership within 100 miles, it's up to you.

***disclaimer***
This is not legal advice. This is only an opinion based on the facts presented here and analyzed based on California law. Florida law may be different and may have more or less restrictions on evidence rules in small claims, or have tighter or looser restrictions on compensatory damages, etc. Always check with free or paid legal services about your legal exposure and procedures as described above. There should be attorneys that will allow you to have a free consultation and give you a better picture of the pros and cons of legal action. Also even if you do we in small claims, you will still need to find a way to collect what they owe you. Make sure you speak to an attorney about this too.

^that sounds fairly efficient way to sort through the BS actually.

I forgot to mention, if it is determined that the dealership was at fault, by court decree and pauldz paid with a credit card. You could use that court decree to force the credit card company to do a charge back so easy peassy collection. :-) Or if you are really ticked off, and the dealership won't pay you back, have the sheriff put a lock on their door until they pay you. That would hurt them more in business than actually paying the $1800. This should also protect you from collections for the chargeback as long as you have a court order.


***disclaimer***
This is not legal advice. This is only an opinion based on the facts presented here and analyzed based on California law. Florida law may be different and may have more or less restrictions on evidence rules in small claims, or have tighter or looser restrictions on compensatory damages, etc. Always check with free or paid legal services about your legal exposure and procedures as described above. There should be attorneys that will allow you to have a free consultation and give you a better picture of the pros and cons of legal action. Also even if you do we in small claims, you will still need to find a way to collect what they owe you. Make sure you speak to an attorney about this too.

Sure. If there was anyway to know if the gas is actually bad and to prove it came from that station. We don't even know what "bad" gas means in this case. The station was given an all clear and there are no other complaints on file so what is any realistic judge going to say? One car doesn't get gas bad enough that $5 worth is going to cause harm but nobody else has a complaint.

YIKES! ....... no wonder California is all fucked up ........ :eyebulge:


humfrz

.......and this coming from another Californian !!....... SMH


humfrz

A demand letter is usually all it takes. Not saying OP would win but SC court costs are low. If he feels the dealership really was out of line this would be the legal way to get proof.


I mean I wouldn't have paid the dealership to begin with since this seems all sorts of strange so maybe just chalk it up to lesson learned.

I once had a bill close to $6,000 for service on a Ferrari 308, which ran like crap afterward. I had a mechanic I know examine and repair the car. He also took several pics of sloppy work and some work that was not done at all. I presented that to Mastercard, which pulled the $6000 out of the first shop's account and credited it back to me. I almost wrote a check for the work, but decided on the card at the last minute. I think that was in the back of my mind at the time. I later settled with the shop for $4000, although Mastercard told me I was under no obligation to do so. I imagine he would have come after me, but would have had to settle for less anyway.

Do you know if it started for them at the dealer after it was towed? Before they worked on it anyways. Were you there for the unloading?

Also, what about miles on the car? Service/maintenance history? Year of the car? Etc...

I was there when the car arrived on the tow truck but they did not try to start it while I was there, it was left in the parking lot. It's a 2016 with 20,000 miles, no prior issues. The state inspector said no one else complained, and he gets at least 10 calls when a station actually has bad gas. The returned spark plugs are dirty, not sure if that is unusual. I'm not interested in suing, I'm not even sure they did me wrong, although it does feel like I was overcharged. I'll probably just leave them a bad review on Yelp and elsewhere to warn others.

Absolutely agree 1000%...that's why you wait the 30 days for a response. :cheers: when you send that original demand letter.

You have to act really nice and request documents from them showing how they came to the decision they did.

Judges love to have their time wasted because the defendant didn't cooperate and give you the proper documents.

In cali, you can do cool things to swing things in your favor. Like you may have a 1 or 2 years statute of limitation to file a suit, but if you combine "unfair competition" into the suit, now magically it's 4 years. You sit on this for 3 years and 10 months, send demand letter. File court papers 30 days later, making sure you keep your copies of all the information you will need. The defendant things got settled 3 years ago and throw away their evidence and are blind sided by a sudden lawsuit 3 years and 11 months later. They are unprepared, can't find records, are basically up against the wall.

The beauty of this is, paper trail is golden. That mechanic may not even work there anymore. Even if he does, "how many cars have you worked on since this one", you can start attacking recollection, bad documentation, etc. You hint at all this, 30 minutes before your court time when the judge asks you if you would like to discuss a settlement in the attorney chambers with the defendant. At that point, they are ready to settle which is pretty good idea to do. You don't want them to appeal a judgment to superior court and if you lose there, you may have to pay for their attorney's fees and yours. Their promise to settle is on the court record and now comes the fun on collecting.

Courtroom apocalypse now. "God I love the smell of napalm in the morning"

Cali is only f'ed up for dumb defendants.

......and I hope you keep that crap thinking down there ...... :mad0259:


humfrz