Originally Posted by JazzleSAURUS (Post 3007748)

The best winter tire is one appropriate for your climate. If you only get cold weather, down to 32 degrees and some rain, I think a 'regular' all season is a good tire to switch to, (Maybe a Conti DWS, or a General RT43 if you need to be cheap). If you get the occasional snowfall of an inch, maybe once or twice, and still rarely dip down into freezing, something like a WR3 is an awesome choice. It's an all season tire made by Nokian meant to be a snow tire that's dialed back to an all season, as opposed to an all season that just has deeper tread to accommodate occasional snowfall.

If your winter spends a decent amount of time below freezing, (more than just a few days here and there,) it's time to consider a proper winter tire. If you get minimal snow, and you're primarily concerned about temperatures and ice, a tire like the Michelin XIce 3 is an amazing choice. It will also do really well in some decent snowfall.

If you have slushy-freezy roads that you have to drive on, the XIce 3, and Blizzak type tires are still great choices, but in some of these slushy conditions I've found their tighter voids can sometimes have difficulty clearing, which is when the more Finnish style winter tire comes into it's element.

If you get lots of snow, heavy downfall, unplowed and packed roads, AND have to contend with ice and slushy nonsense, the Finnish style winter tires REALLY shine. On a budget, stuff like the Altimax Arctic, (and now Arctic 12,) are based on tires that were revolutionary when they launched, and tires like the Hakkapaliitta R2 are both funny to say, and are absolute monsters in just about any condition.

If you can describe your worst-case, and average winter driving conditions I think I can best help you select an appropriate tire.

The stock tires on 86's are a low rolling resistance summer tire. It's a high quality tire though many around these parts poo-poo it because it doesn't offer a ton of grip, which is very decidedly NOT the point of the tire. Engineers chose a tire that offered a lot of communication and feedback, good fuel economy and wear, and specifically offered a low grip threshold so people could learn the joys of a fairly low-grip tire on a very well tuned, lower power vehicle.

Swapping the tires over twice a year is $50-60 each time, it adds up quick, and you already have your OEM wheels. Having dedicated wheels and tires saves money, especially if you already have them, and allows you to have a spare set of wheels if you curb a wheel or bust a tire and need to make it to a payday before buying a replacement.

The drastic performance difference is based largely on rubber tech and tread design. Different formulations of the rubber can perform well within a certain temperature and condition range. Some forumlations really only do well when it's above 50 degrees and dry, these rubber formulations will be found on extreme performance tires and track day tires. Some do well above 40 and aren't bothered much by the wet, these are the typical good summer tire like a PSS and an S-04 I've talked about a bunch here. All seasons generally do well between 65 degrees and 35 degrees. When they get above that point they get a bit greasy and unpredictable, when they get below that they start to get hard and give up grip. Their tread pattern is often a compromise too, it's meant for around 50 degrees usually, but they make the tread taller to have deeper voids to accommodate the snow. This is why I refer to them as 'no-seasons'. They really don't do well anywhere. Winter tires are of an even softer compound, so above 45 they start to get greasy, but tend to perform well all the way down to 0f, sometimes lower. They often have larger voids, tons of siping, silica carbide 'teeth' molded into the tread to grip icey spots, provisions for studs, etc.

Knowing what you're up against will help you pick the proper tire.

Originally Posted by cytogenesis (Post 3007903)

If I'm going to have 2 sets of tires, I'll probably be ok with just rotating out the tires rather than going back to stock wheels every winter. I don't mind the charge twice a year, it's worth keeping the new wheels on it for me.

I'll try to give as best of a summary as I can to help you help me decide what the 2 sets of tires are I should get. We typically only have like a few days of snowfall a year, and it usually doesn't stay on the ground for very long. Worst case I would say like 6 inches of snow with most of it being gone probably by the next day. I think the biggest worry here is ice/black ice which I'd say we get more often.

For summer tires, are there any differences between the S-O4's or the super sports?

One last thing, I contacted my Subaru dealership about the 14mm crash bolts and they told me they were strictly aftermarket... Is that normal?

Originally Posted by JazzleSAURUS (Post 3007907)

Re swapping: that's your call. The way I see it, your wheels can look slightly worse for a couple months and you know you'll never slide your pretty ones into a curb on black ice.

If your primary concern is black ice, grab the michelin XIce3 off tire rack asap, there's a $70 mail in rebate making them around $350+shipping in many sizes which is an insane deal imo!

S-04 has a stiffer sidewall and slightly softer tread, PSS has a more uniform stiffness through the tire. Both will be excellent summer tire choices.

Many Subaru parts departments are really unaware of what they have. Just ask for 2 x 901000394 and corresponding nut. If they say that's 'strictly aftermarket' ask them to search for an M14x60 bolt and corresponding nut, then make them repeat back the part number so you can laugh at them. :thumbsup:

Originally Posted by cytogenesis (Post 3008025)

You always bring up fair points so now I am starting to tilt to other side. So let me ask this, say I have the crash bolts and I buy that new set of black lug nuts and they get installed. When it comes to swap out for summer tires, is it literally just taking off the winter tires/wheels and putting on the summer tires/wheels? Just a regular swap? Would I need to ask for -2 degrees camber and zero toe every time?

Originally Posted by churchx (Post 3008208)

If they are mounted on different wheels, why that would be any different as wheel swap? Just that if one uses tires on wheels for several seasons long without remounting/rebalancing, sometimes disbalance issues may occur. Like some wheel weights falling off, slight tire deformation from storing way or uneven wear and so on. If for long used wheel/tire you feel abnormal noises/vibration, it's worth to rebalance wheel&tire.

Car alignment (bit of camber/toe/caster, with camberbolts, camberplates, LCAs, UCAs, toe arms, eccentric bushings and such parts) doesn't change on wheel swap. And is usually set independently of tire mounts on wheels and often in different shops. It's just spacial orientation/angles you set wheel hubs to, that stays at it, no matter what weels/tires you mount on. One changes alignment in cases if one wishes a bit different handling or if there have been heavy hits to suspension and one suspects (maybe even feels) that alignment got out of whack and needs to be rechecked, not on wheel remounts.

Originally Posted by cytogenesis

I'm having trouble understanding your first paragraph. Are you speaking against only tire swapping or vise versa? Sorry for my confusion.

Originally Posted by churchx (Post 3008312)

Both have pros & cons. Having another set of wheels with other season tires may let save some money on not remounting tires on wheels & balancing them each year twice at tire shops, especially if you change wheels yourself (i suggest getting better then stock jack and easier to use wrench though instead of those stock in boot, for easier/quicker DIY wheel swap). Also permits usage of different sized wheels in winter (eg. smaller ones, for more comfortable ride on bad roads in winter, cheaper tires (for me same brand/model of tires of R16 tires was 150eur less then R17)). And if you have expensive aftermarket wheels, lets save them against damages during worse weather/roads season. From cons: you need to have another set of wheels (if you bought aftermarket wheels, you still have your stock wheels set though. And if you have nice stock alloys, you can get for cheap used another alloy set or new cheap steelies set for winter), and as i noted in quoted post, for several years/seasons in a row used/stored tire-wheel combo may get disbalanced for few reasons, thus wobble when driving, so sometimes separate remount/rebalance might be needed.

Reusing same set of wheels, just remounting winter or summer tires on them by season, on the other hand can let save some money on not getting 2nd set of wheels, lets have nice looking and possibly lighter wheels all year round, enables usage of some storage services for storing other season tires when unused if available in neighbourhood, not in your flat/house and you get tires rebalanced on each mount. But among cons: paying twice a year for remounting services, lower comfort & higher possibility to damage wheels in some winter road holes due lower sidewall profile with less flex/dampening, possibly need to get too wide winter tires to fit wider wheel width and also maybe pay more for tires.

I'm not advocating 100% pro or contra one or another. Everybody may have his own preferences/priorities.

In addition to post of JazzleSAURUS, if you DIY, remember: 1) tighten lugnuts in cross order (1-4-2-5-3), 2) after driving 100-200 miles check/tighten nuts again if needed, 3) tires are worth to store in place not subjected to direct sunlight/rain/snow, 4) imho better store on side, not vertically.

Originally Posted by JazzleSAURUS (Post 3008278)

Literally just jack the car up, pop off the lug nuts, swap wheels, lug nuts back on. After the first year of doing this and have dedicated wheels and tires, the $100 you saved puts a nice dent in a harbor freight jack and a pair of stands to do it yourself. :thumbsup:

Originally Posted by cytogenesis (Post 3008395)

Ok so, I think I'm going to go oseparate wheels and tires based on season based on the feedback I'm getting. I would like to use stock wheels for winter and still the 17x8 oversteers for summer. This is my gameplan, I'll lace some questions in there along the way. Any feedback/suggestions are welcome. @churchx also

1) Get winter tires (or all seasons?) (still not sure which is better for my weather/gameplan)
- what size do i need to get for stock wheels?
- depending on which you think is better for this season, what model?
2) install winter tires on stock wheels with previously mentioned Muteki lug nut set, 14mm OEM crash bolts (up to -2 deg camber and zero toe)
- I'm assuming it won't be appropriate here to assess if I want spacers unless the new tires I get are the same size
- Ideally I could find a setup that would make it to where it looks good with both if I decide to add spacers, if that makes sense...
3) Come the new season, get summer tires (225/45/R17) either Bridgestone S-04's or Michelin Pilot Super Sports and 17x8 +35 Oversteers
- How do you tell when it's time to swap to summers? is it 45F and above?
- I also will need to figure out how to properly store tires and wheels come time for the summer swap

I know a good bit of this is repeat so sorry in advance for that, I'm just getting lost between these all seasons and winters. Also, I like the security in knowing I'm making the right purchase :).

Originally Posted by churchx (Post 3009802)

JSube: Primacies are more expensive then average in EU too. I can get MPSS for way less then them.

Originally Posted by JSube (Post 3009765)

Didn't notice anyone mentioning this, forgive me if it was covered, but one thing our cars are sensitive to is adding or reducing weight, particularly unsprung weight like wheels and tires. The wheels you mentioned are good looking wheels (Raijin, etc) and they're about the same weight as stock wheels. But RPF1s are approx. a whopping 5-6 lbs per wheel less than stock wheels. And collectively, a 20-24 lb unsprung weight loss you can feel in a really good way performance-wise. IMO that makes them a great choice for summer wheels when the roads are in good shape. Also keep in mind the cars in those links you included were all lowered. Flush is good, but it's not the whole package of what you've been drooling over!

Also, it looks like you live in Tennessee, which certainly gets snow on the Appalachian side but if that's not where you live you'll likely be happy with "performance" all seasons, which you can find reviewed and compared on Tire Rack. I have Pirelli All Season Plus and they're a great choice in Louisville KY.

Finally, spending big money on ultra grippy summer tires and not increasing you car's performance will result in a disappointing reduction of nimble handling and joy during moments of hoonigan behavior in our cars. That is not a universally agreed-with position on our forum, but the fact is SubaYota engineers designed the chassis specifically with the Primacys attached because in Europe they're cheap and their behavior on the car suited and complimented the chassis/engine package. It's possible to numb-down our cars and it's a drag to spend money to do so.

Originally Posted by cytogenesis (Post 3010297)

So you're saying making these changes without altering the performance will make my car worse?

Originally Posted by jvincent (Post 3010322)

Depends on your definition of worse and what you want out of the car.

Moving to wider, stickier tires will mean you lose the ability to get the car sliding as easily as it does out of the box. If you don't want that, then you have arguably made the car "better".

If you plan on tracking the car at all, then stickier is probably better.