Front camber? Noob
 

Like when i disagree with advice i genuinely want to be proven wrong. So then i understand. If you cant explain your own advice why should i recieve it as truth


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If you review my posts in your thread you will without a doubt find that in all of them I (and many others) attempt to help. It is not until you become defiant and aggressive that the tone changes.
I simply stated here that if you LISTEN to what people are telling you that you will LEARN things and can figure out the issues on your own. In this thread alone you have challenged and countered almost everything people told you. I AM trying to help you understand how to get the info you want. You are just totally missing my point.

Now stop bitching at me and let your thread get back on topic.

Comprehensive answers were given on page one of this thread.

There's nothing new being added because there's nothing more to add with the exception of answering Ultras questions.

Tcoats.crush


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On front camber, yes. But as to why my rear is 1.5 degrees apart after lowering springs, no.


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What cambrr plates do you recomend


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On the front suspension, yes. On the rear suspension, 100% no.

If you take the strut out of the front suspension the knuckle is left wobbling around on the LCA. Macpherson struts aren't just shocks, they're integral to the geometry.

If you take the shock out of the rear the knuckle is still perfectly located by the LCA, UCA and trailing arm. On a double wishbone or multilink setup the shock is just a shock and doesn't control geometry at all.

If you're sick of people getting pissy with you, take a look at the tone of your posts. You don't sound like you're trying to learn, you sound like you're telling people that are trying to help you that they're wrong.

Is the car your daily driver? Does it get driven year round? What's your budget? How much camber do you want up front?

IMO, don't get camber plates. By the sound of the rest of your posts, you're going to get frustrated by them making noise (that's what happens when you replace bushings with bearings in the suspension).

I explained myself clearly enough for others to see and agree with my approach. I do this all day long with hundreds of engineers and designers. I'm not about to give in to petulance on my own free time. Maybe someone else will hand you a fish. I'm here to teach you how.

Could a bend in a rear strut not push force down on the lca though?


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The rear shock/spring always pushes down on the LCA, bent or not. Pushing down on the LCA won't change the geometry at all.

Here's what the rear suspension looks like. Notice the shock isn't connected to the knuckle at all, meaning there's no way it can affect camber from being bent.

http://image.superstreetonline.com/f...suspension.jpg

Daily driver yes. Aggresive canyon roads or track on weekends. I enjoy getting the back end out around corners.

I bought trd lowering springs as i was assured my geometry would stay the same and i wouldnt have to do anything to adjust camber in rear. Now im told by previous trd installers that they thru their camber out somehow. And NNNOW im told Rear struts dont change camber. Haha. So whatever i guess.

I dont know what to do. Id like my rear camber at around -2 on both sides. And its at -.9 and -2.6. I didnt think id have to lcas. Id like my front to be -2 atleast and its at -.7 i believe. But i dont wanna spend any more than 2-300$ max. I might just put the old coils back on and drive around like a 4x4.


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Front camber? Noob
 

But its connected to the lca which is connected to the knuckle? And you nver answers as to why lowering a car throws camber out. That has solely to do with spring and strut.

So youre saying if i dropped or lifted my car 6" its camber would stay the same? Really..?

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Ugh, no. Have you even tried to learn/understand suspension systems work? All the answers to your questions have been answered multiple times on here.

All suspensions have camber curves, which is the rate that camber changes through compression. Lowering our cars increases rear camber more than front camber because the rear suspension gains more camber from compression (better camber curve) than the front.

A bent rear shock won't affect camber unless it's from unequal ride height. If you haven't measured the car on flat ground to see if the ride height is equal left to right, you haven't even started troubleshooting what's happening.

What's different up front is that a bent strut will directly change camber without a ride height difference since it's directly bolted to the knuckle without a pivot. That's the reason people are telling you a bent shock won't change rear camber, because it wouldn't change it without other very obvious effects. You'd be looking at roughly 3/4" difference in ride height left to right to have a difference in camber that big. Ride height affects camber, not how straight the rear shock is.

It's also highly unlikely you have a bent rear shock unless you've bent a lot of other parts in the rear suspension too.

Front camber? Noob
 

I understand the differences between the fromt and rear struts. I was holding them in my hand yesterday. I could see how a bent fromt strut would comprismise more than just camber up front.

But lowering my car excentuated the camber variance in my back end? This is what i first said when i first mentioned it. I understand that.

Also how am i to measure ride height when one tire is angled way in and the other is almost flat. Its decieving..? Kinda hard to measure ride height unless both tires are square.


And you dont need to uhg no me. Im repeating whay you are saying. That strut and spring have "nothing to do with camber" but putting a smaller spring in effects camber? So youre telling me two things man. Dont get mad at me

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Front camber? Noob
 

15 people telling me different shit is the real struggle

Straight answers would be nice. Not all these fucking riddles


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Here's another riddle. How do you know the change in ride height caused the variance if you didn't measure the camber before you lowered it?

lol. straightforward question and answer, here we go:

Q: Why is my camber out of wack on the rear of my car?
A: No one knows, and you've done little to help us help you

Q: What do I do to fix it?
A: Could be anything, maybe your subframe is skewed, possible impact? You can spend $200 on SPC LCA's and install them yourself.

Q: That's not good enough of an answer, I want to know why some people told me that I would not have to have camber adjustment with TRD springs?
A: Because something is off with your car. Or your installation perhaps (can't imagine what). We are not mind readers so we do the best we can.

Q: What do I do if I don't want to spend $200 but I want my car fixed?
A: Return your car to stock, and be fine with it. If you want to mod your car, be prepared to have patience and money to throw at it. Don't get pissed at us if you have no idea what you're doing.

Thanks for playing

That is something ive been wondering myself. There is a decent baseball sized ding in the middle of what i would call my running board. About 3ft from center of rear tire. Could have shifted the subframe. I dont know how previous owner got that.

Although i feel like it would have still been noticeable with stock height and stock tires. 1.5 degrees is quite noticeable dont you think?

I noticed as soon as i did the springs. I re did the rears today. Making sure everything was perfect. Torqued every damn bolt to spec. Everything looks symetrical and good down there.

Another member didnsay after trd springs his car had a degree of variance in the rear. Maybe my shits just extreme? Lol


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.75 inches on a lowering spring, to call that a chassis/suspension modification where you would expect to throw money at it after the fact, comon man. Really? Its modding in the slightest sense.

That being said im fine with spending 200$. But in canada 240$ is over 300.shipping taxes and duties. And then another alignment. Im close to 500$

How can i help? The only thing that has been asked of me is to post a photo of a double wishbone setup.

I could have taken photos of MY own cars rear end. For you guys to look at. That would have been helpful. As you know what youre looking at. Youd spot a bend quickly. As i would in the suspensions im used to looking at. Id know wich bends are supposed to be there and wich arent.


I will buy the spcs for the rear i guess. Is there a candian vendor!? For speed factory.

Also for the front. Ive been told i need whitelines for bottom bolt and re use bottom bolt up top. I have about 3/4" of space between spring and tire. 245/40 on a 17x8.25 with +35. Ive been told i need something? As ill hit suspension. Camber plates i believe? The guy also had +45 offset. My tire only is inward 3mm from stock but out something like 28mm

I guess im hoping for -2.5 infront and -2.0 in rear.

Really i need a degree of variance +\- in the rear and 1.5 in the front!! To be simple.

Thank you for your straightness. Haha




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Did you spend any time studying the image of the model wparsons gave you? If not, go back, study it until you can clearly explain to me why a shift in the subframe would have no effect.

If you cannot make enough sense of the image to do that, then once again... (how many times have I asked for this?)

google double wishbone suspensions.

find a couple simple diagrams to share here so we can discuss them.

I recognized immediately that you lack a basic understanding. That is why I started with this approach. Period.

I never said a shift in the subframe would have no effect. I said it Would!! And i wad just under my car for fucking hours man. I dont need to look at a diagram. Nor do i neeed to look at a diagram to understand the physics of an impact. ALLL suspension systems would be out of skew from a sub/frame impact. Not just double wishbone. Christ


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I know what you said I'm trying to help you understand how you're wrong. A simple shift in the subframe has no effect. Dude, I'm finished here. Good luck with it.

Once again, ALL the answers you're after have been covered if you just bothered to search. Don't get pissed off at people that are trying to help just because you don't like their answers or don't understand them.

What else would it compromise? My WHOLE point about the front was that a bent strut would directly change camber even without a difference in ride height.

Unless one side is significantly lower than the other, lowering it didn't accentuate the difference left to right (also known as cross camber). Stop blaming the springs for this unless there really is a big difference in ride height. Your car was probably out by this much before, but since you didn't have it aligned you never noticed.

By measuring between two points that don't rely on the tire... like fender to center of hub or fender to ground. Again, search before asking for people to spoon feed you every.single.answer!


The ugh was definitely required because you're not actually reading what people are telling you. You asked why the camber is different left to right, and mentioned someone told you a bent strut would do it. First, it's not a strut in the rear. Second, if you actually read what people (myself included) have told you, you'd understand better.

Is that on the side with more camber, or the other side?

Not at all unless you're taking measurements. Did you notice before it went on the alignment rack after installing the springs?

"Looks good and symmetrical" without accurate measurements means nothing with an alignment. A difference of 1.5* would be about 1/4" difference at the top of the wheel, there's simply no way you can eyeball that while looking at the suspension arms. The difference in length between the arms/mounting points would be like 1/16".

You did all that, but still haven't measured ride height? Start looking at basic things first instead of just repeating what you've already done.

Did you take the other advice that someone suggested and have a friend push or pull to try to add or remove camber while torquing all the bolts down?

On the side with too much camber, have the friend pull out on the top of the wheel as hard as they can while every bolt on the UCA and LCA is torqued down (from loose, not from hand tight). On the other side have them push in on the top of the wheel as hard as they can. There's a bit of wiggle room in every connection before the bolts are torqued and you just might be able to even out the camber a bit. There's not guarantees, but if you're already taking stuff apart multiple times you might as well try this.

That said, you won't be able to see the difference so you'll have to spend money on another alignment to check it. By the time you try a bunch of options and have it aligned again, you would've been better off to just buy the LCA set and do it right.

Put 10 stock cars on an alignment rack and I bet 7 or 8 will be off by at least 0.5*, with at least a couple being out by more than 1*.


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There are no riddles, you're just not taking the time to read and comprehend properly.

If you're not prepared to keep spending, stop modifying anything or deal with it being "good enough". Put the stock springs back in and get it aligned and see how much it's still out.

Start with ride height measurements at all four corners while the car is resting on a really flat surface.

It would only take a very minimal bend to be out by 1.5* side to side, no one is going to see that in pictures.


I'm not going to answer this one beyond SEARCH. There is a canadian distributor, but you're going to have to do some leg work for once.

Again with not fully reading what you're told. It was me that told you that you MIGHT be limited to how much front camber you can get without camber plates by your wheel/tire specs. I have -2.3* up front with really tight clearance. Got there with Whiteline bolts in the top hole of the knuckle and some slight slotting of the hole.

You have +35 which gets you 10mm more clearance, but you're also running a 245 which in theory is 20mm wider than my 225's, BUT depending on what tire you have it could be more or less of a difference. Cutting that 20mm in half (since it'll bulge equally in and out) wipes out the 10mm extra you have from your offset. If your 245's aren't a full 20mm wider, you'll have more clearance, but if they're more than 20mm wider you'll have less.

You could add 10mm spacers, but then you need longer studs.

Again, after reading more of your posts... don't get camber plates. They all make some noise due to the lack of any bushings, and you'll just be on here complaining about the noise and how to fix it.

Get as much camber as you can up front without rubbing the tire on the spring perch, how much that is will depend very much on your specific car and no one online can tell you that answer, then go with 0.5* less in the rear. If you're maxed out at -2* up front, then -1.5* in the rear. If you can get to -2.2* up front, then go with -1.7* in the rear, etc.


Again, you're not reading what people are telling you.

If you had looked at the diagram, you'd notice that the upper control arm AND lower control arm AND trailing arm AND toe arm are all both bolted to the subframe. You could set the entire rear alignment with the subframe out of the car.

What does that mean? It means that if the sub frame is slightly shifted left or right (or front or back) on the chassis it won't cause the camber variance you have.

If the subframe itself is bent, the mount point for the UCA or LCA could be moved and THAT could cause a difference in camber. Or if either LCA or UCA is bent, it could be causing it.

Now up front a shifted subframe can change camber because the upper mounting point for the struts is the body. That means shifting the sub frame changes the relative position between the upper and lower mounting points. You can't do the front alignment with the sub frame out of the car.

Man i said i had a dent in running board on side with more camber and you acted like i was an idiot for not assuming that impact could have changed camber.

Then i agree with you and you act like im an idiot for agreeing with you.

What
The
Fuck. I swear ur juat trolling and enjoy getting ppl fired up like tcoat


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There are no riddles, you're just not taking the time to read and comprehend properly.



If you're not prepared to keep spending, stop modifying anything or deal with it being "good enough". Put the stock springs back in and get it aligned and see how much it's still out.



Start with ride height measurements at all four corners while the car is resting on a really flat surface.



It would only take a very minimal bend to be out by 1.5* side to side, no one is going to see that in pictures.




I'm not going to answer this one beyond SEARCH. There is a canadian distributor, but you're going to have to do some leg work for once.



Again with not fully reading what you're told. It was me that told you that you MIGHT be limited to how much front camber you can get without camber plates by your wheel/tire specs. I have -2.3* up front with really tight clearance. Got there with Whiteline bolts in the top hole of the knuckle and some slight slotting of the hole.

You have +35 which gets you 10mm more clearance, but you're also running a 245 which in theory is 20mm wider than my 225's, BUT depending on what tire you have it could be more or less of a difference. Cutting that 20mm in half (since it'll bulge equally in and out) wipes out the 10mm extra you have from your offset. If your 245's aren't a full 20mm wider, you'll have more clearance, but if they're more than 20mm wider you'll have less.

You could add 10mm spacers, but then you need longer studs.



Again, after reading more of your posts... don't get camber plates. They all make some noise due to the lack of any bushings, and you'll just be on here complaining about the noise and how to fix it.

Get as much camber as you can up front without rubbing the tire on the spring perch, how much that is will depend very much on your specific car and no one online can tell you that answer, then go with 0.5* less in the rear. If you're maxed out at -2* up front, then -1.5* in the rear. If you can get to -2.2* up front, then go with -1.7* in the rear, etc.




Again, you're not reading what people are telling you.

If you had looked at the diagram, you'd notice that the upper control arm AND lower control arm AND trailing arm AND toe arm are all both bolted to the subframe. You could set the entire rear alignment with the subframe out of the car.

What does that mean? It means that if the sub frame is slightly shifted left or right (or front or back) on the chassis it won't cause the camber variance you have.

If the subframe itself is bent, the mount point for the UCA or LCA could be moved and THAT could cause a difference in camber. Or if either LCA or UCA is bent, it could be causing it.

Now up front a shifted subframe can change camber because the upper mounting point for the struts is the body. That means shifting the sub frame changes the relative position between the upper and lower mounting points. You can't do the front alignment with the sub frame out of the car.[/QUOTE]


First off. I dont get why were talking about the front struts. And youre not reading what i said!!! I said i CAN (not cant) see how bend in front strut would directly effect camber?!


Im not saying the springs CAUSED it. Immsaying they EXCENTUATED it. As in with the car having LESS wheel gap. Its EASIER. To see camber variance.

Ding is on side with more negative camber.

I noticed before alignment

Yes i tried the push and pull texhnique when i re did the rears yesterday seems maybe a bit better. Hard to say

I am ordering spc lcas and will be installin before i get another alignment. Also some whiteline bolts.

I searced on google for ft86 speed factory vendor as the search function in this forum is terrible.

I found ft86motorsports? Thats the candian vendor? 286$ shipped for lcas is really good!

Ill measure ride height after work










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The rear suspension isn't a Mcpherson strut, it's Subaru's pseudo double-wishbone. The suspension itself is the load bearing structure, not the shock. If the shock was bent from a hit then there would likely be a lot more bent. Your vehicle could have taken an impact underneath that bent a control arm or the rear subframe. The running board is a different point of impact, obviously.

The car should be inspected underneath and the visual measurement you are doing for camber can actually be be done more accurately with a leveler app on an smart phone. The phone needs to be held along the rim or place a uniform flat object against the wheel, then the phone. Use level ground.

A 1" lowering doesn't "scream" for rear LCA's but the negative camber will increase as you go lower. The OEM settings do have some negative camber in rear so it will be accentuated as you drop. I am on a 20 mm drop (.78") with coilovers with front camber plates. The plates increase noise/harshness as they have a pillow ball bearing.

Pretty sure you should be OK stock with TRD 1" lowering springs/Eibach Sportlines. If in 50,000 km you see notable shoulder wear on the rear tires then invest in adjustable rear LCA's going forward. I think Tcoat has TRD springs since new on stock suspension/tires without issue. The current wisdom seems to be for street use or occasoinal track, max drop 1" no absolute need for camber correction. Camber bolts in the front are cheap so maybe worth adding a bit since the rear was increased.

YMMV

Crazy! Thanks. Ill do it after work!!


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Front camber? Noob
 

I dont want to or plan to go any lower. I love my car how it sits now. Aside from neg rear cAmber.

Just so youre informed i wasnt eyeballing camber. It came back from alignment at -2.6 pass side and -.9 driver.

I thought id be ok with the trd coils aswell but i guess ordering some rear lcas are what i should do. I cant handle looking at one tire tucked under fender and one tire sticking out of fender. Looks so bad. Im sure it will effect performance too

I wont be running plates. And THANK YOU for understanding the word excentuate haha.

Youre saying i shouldnt buy new lcas?


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If the two sides are way off as is, there is something that is bent that needs to be replaced. Rear LCA's are only a solution if the stock LCA is bent as you might as well go aftermarket then. Otherwise the damaged part needs to be addressed or the discrepancy otherwise explained.

It was brought up to explain the difference between the front and rear suspension, and why a bent shock won't cause what you're experiencing in the rear.


The word you're looking for is accentuated.

I'm a little surprised you can visibly see the difference in camber with your wheel specs, it's about a 1/4" difference side to side at the top of the tire.

Next time use a level app on your phone and measure before/after. Don't trust them as anything beyond relative measurements, but they'll be good at telling you if you got any benefit from the attempt.

The search function isn't terrible, you just have to know what to search for. There's also this very useful site called google that will find WAY more information for you.

That's the one.

Make sure the car is on a really flat surface, both left to right and front to back.

Were you sitting in the car while it was being aligned? If not, it's not an accurate measurement for how the car is normally driven. Depending on your weight it could be off a few tenths of a degree.

There's no way the difference is that extreme from 1.5* unless there's another issue at play as well. Like I've said a few times, the difference at the top of the tire should be in the 1/4" range.

How much do you know about the previous history of the car? Any accident repairs at all?

If the subframe is shifted, it could cause more poke on one side even without the camber difference.

He's saying that the camber on a typical car from a ~1" drop doesn't really require any correction. If you want to keep the balance closer to stock, or want closer cross camber, then you'll need LCA's to correct it.

Absolutely zero trolling nor fuckery from me. I am being as direct as I can.

I am reasonably certain that something on your suspension or your subframe is bent. Not shifted, bent.

A shift in the subframe would show up in both wheels. If we were to spend some quality time discussing the topic in general, you would benefit greatly from understanding the whole thing.

Your improved understanding and correct use of terminology would then enable you to figure out with reasonable certainty if, and how the suspension was damaged.

I'd be willing to bet that the problem side is actually the side with -0.9*, not the side with -2.5. With a 1" drop I'm at -2.5*R and -2.6*L (with me in the driver's seat). Even with 1/4" less drop, it should be closer to -2.5* than 0.9*.

Took the car to the only good alignment man i know in lowermainland here. Dialed in the rear to -1.7 and -2.0. Guys a wizard. Found some wiggle room within the bolts.


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That's an understatement, if he can consistently find 0.8/0.5 degrees of camber adjustment off of 'wiggle room' on an 86 he'd be a rich man.

People would legit fly him out across the continent to have him align the car if that's the case.

Glad to hear your car is all sorted now, wish we could know how it was off so badly but some mysteries remain unsolved.

:cheers:

Yup. We haven't confirmed that the -0.9 side corresponds to the body damage. I had that on deck for OP but wasn't going to make any assumptions for fear of jumping to conclusions and taking shortcuts.

Anyhow, glad it's worked out.

I think the fountain tire that first did it must have made some mistakes.

The guy today who i wanted to bring it to saturday. His initial reading i think was 2.2 and 1.4. Somewhere round there. Not as off as the fountain tire job at 2.6 and .9.

So no lcas. Yay. And he says i have more than enough room for degree or two in the fromt.


Anyone familiar with grinding the front spring perches down? as i noticed they are the closest thing to the tire, not the spring itself. Have people done that? Any feedback?


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Anybody know a good video or article explaining these macpherson struts and double wishbones


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Don't, there's a lip on the edge to keep the spring seated properly. If you want more clearance there buy coilovers.