Let me jump into this one with both feet. I used to be self proclaimed Bimmer man and have had several Bimmers in the past. Most recently '07 Z4 3.0si and a '04 E46 M3. I've owned E46 ZHP's, M Roadster, Z3 M, 330i, etc. Like I said I used to be a Bimmer man, but... and it's a big but not anymore. They've just gone mental like Porsche. I mean a fully loaded E92 335is is $65k+ and a new M3 $85k+??? Mental I tell you!

In any case, let's get back to the subject at hand. My most recent Z4 3.0si had it's entire head replaced twice under warrenty and the entire motor replaced once. After that I was done. I sold it after less than 2 yrs of ownership. The E46 M3 I had the engine blow up once and the engine replaced only to have the motor die again twice. Once on the fwy. I think it spent more time at the dealer than in my garage. After that I was done and had my buddy, who is a slick lawyer, have BMW America buy the car back.

But my impression of the E46 M3,which is probably my favorite Bimmer I've ever owned next to the E46 ZHP, is that it was really good. Handled great and the motor was really strong. The thing that killed it for me was the SMG II. I live in LA and traffic is a bitch. In stop n go traffic the tranny kicks like a mule. Also, the ride is really stiff. Like bruise your kidneys stiff. So it got really annoying on bad roads, which is pretty much all we get here in metro LA. One thing though, I did take it on the track a couple of times and then that's really when I began to appreciate how good the car was. The SMG II really came into it's own on the track and really made me feel like I was some race car driver. Unfortunately, I didn't take the car to the track as much as I'd have liked. Sometimes I miss the car, but I think the BRZ will fix that! :happy0180:

Still too heavy for him. Get rid of the bells and whistles (motor, brakes, suspension, pedals, gas tank). All he needs is a steering wheel, a seat, a chassis and his god given Flintstones powerplant.

Just curious as to where you're located that you're getting shafted so bad on Bayerische prices?

I just think that a 3500 lb M3 is a travesty, a more sophisticated and upmarket Camaro rather than a proper evolution of the original E30 M3 ideals.

FRS/BRZ are comparable to the original M3. Similar specs but at a much lower price point. Now *that's* progress. The M3's devolepment has just been to add ever more mass and power, not at all true to the ideals of minimalism, light(ish) weight, and maximized FUN.

If I could have either car, and lived in a fantasy land where everything had a million year warranty and nothing ever broke, I'd go for the M3 every time. It's more of a GT than the FR-S/BRZ, but the performance, feel, sounds, etc are awesome.

Sadly, I live in realityland, and used M3s have some pretty significant maintainance requirements and no warranty :brokenheart:

Progress is, essentially, re-creating a 90's BMW, and selling it for less? That's an interesting take on progress.

It is WAY more relevant to real-world driving enjoyment than the modern uber-M3's excess. If your enthusiasm is all about numbers, sure, modern M3s are "better". But any number of BMWphiles would agree with my point: the original was more pure and more FUN.

For the record I was joking before, just poking a little fun at your minimalist weight obsession :P.

But I'll add a little insight to this seeing as I've been working for the company for a while now. The current iteration of the BMW name/performance/driving feel, is that bread for competition. Sure minimalist vehicles are FUN but miata drivers, old school CRX owners, RX8 owners, and future FRS owners will tell you they don't produce the best all around numbers. Not to mention your perception of what is "pure and more fun" is highly subjective, most people just enjoy the feeling of being put back in their seat and then taking a corner at an ungodly speed; which regardless of how much they weigh, new BMW's are VERY capable of doing.

Also, you need to consider the demographic BMW's are marketed to and the competition that exists in that market demographic. Your typical M3 owner isn't your average joe making average joe money, that's just a fact; call them upper middle class at the very least. Now their reason for doing that is for the simple fact that luxury and prestige sell. Need an example? Take the Boss 302. It out performs the M3 in every sense of the word but what do you think impresses NON-Enthusiasts (the majority of the automotive market) more, actual performance or the Logo BMW and comperable performance that you can feel? Both cars will put you back in your seat, both cars corner extraodinarily well (albiet one a bit better than the the other), and both cars "in my opinion" look amazing. The big difference? Cost of ownership, Emblem, Luxury and prestige. Want proof, ask any random Man or Woman on the street "Are you a performance minded automotive enthusiast?" If they answer "what??" or "No, I don't know much about cars" or just simply "No" follow that question up with "BMW M3 or Ford Mustang Boss 302"; I can confidently say 4 out of 5 people will say BMW M3.

Now public image aside lets look at the M3's competitors, Audi RS4 / RS5, Mercedes C63 AMG, and the soon to be Cadillac ATS-V. All luxury sports coupe / sedans, all fairly costly, all not what you would call "minimalist". That's just the way things have turned out for the M3 and if they went back to the lightweight/moderate horsepower/maximum handling potential route, they would lose sales. Period. And the BMW M "cash cow" wouldn't be the BMW M cash cow anymore.

So like it or not, you're in the minority. Also, having driven many a e46/e92 M3 and a few e30's, I can confidently tell you they are PLENTY of fun and don't need to be as light as the e30 to stay that way.




Edit: Listen bro, I know it may seem this way but I have no personal vendetta against you or your ideals pertaining to cars. The only thing I'm saying is a world where manufacturers cater to enthusiasts with pre-existing platforms refusing to adapt to the needs/wants of present society is nothing short of fictitious. If they did, they'd all be belly up.

"Bred" for competition? Not really. By and large they are luxury cars that put up stellar performance numbers, but they are further and further removed from being good track cars.

You can't even get a limited slip in a non-M BMW any more. Way back when you could get a clutch-type lsd in the lowliest 318i!

The E36 is really the last good BMW track car, IMO.

Yeah, they put up good numbers. But 99% of the time on the street (unless your an ass), you're not going to be driving in any kind of way where you can appreciate the ultimate performance capability. Smaller lighter-weight cars just feel more fun *all* the time.

Not as much as economy/practicality does. Unfortunately BMW doesn't have the guts to do another 2002 type car.

IMO they could expand their market quite a bit if they'd simply do a car like the Mini, but rwd. Simple, small, lightweight, affordable, FUN. They've grown far too comfortable building high-$$$ luxury sedans and SUVs. Even the 1-series is a 3300 lb. boat!

I don't think that they'd necessarily lose sales by doing something similar to the E30 M3 or FR-S/BRZ. It was not NECESSARY for the M3 to evolve the way it did, it could have continued to add performance without adding so much weight, power, and cost. They *chose* to evolve it in the superluxocar direction.
It is entirely possible that they *could* be selling a lot more smaller/lighter/cheaper cars than they are selling 3700 lb. 414hp M3s. They simply chose to go the maximalist luxoboat route.

I've driven my share, too. The bigger/heavier cars *always* feel bigger and heavier, and not at all like the E30.

Of course manufacturers must do their best to serve up what the public wants. But the smaller/lighter-weight performance segment has been all but ignored save for the Miata, and I think that a LOT of opportunites to sell cars have been MISSED.

BMW *could* have built a much smaller, lighter-weight car with the same power/weight as the current M3. Such a car would have given the same real-world and track performance with a smaller, less powerful engine, smaller tires, smaller wheels, smaller brakes. I would be *cheaper*, and they would most likely sell a ton of them.

Here's hoping the FR-S/BRZ sell a ton and wake BMW and other manufacturers up to the idea of performance and driving enjoyment through minimalism rather than always "more more more".

BMW are excellent track cars, you just don't consider them as such. All the numbers and proof are there to support that claim. What makes them even better is they're excellent cars that perform well, allow the driver to feel nothing short of confident going into or exiting a corner / driving at high speeds and they offer a comfortable amount of luxury. You can't sit there and tell me that you can put the words luxury, lightweight, and class leading five star safety in the same sentence. Go ahead, I dare you.

Why would you need one in the non-M models when they aren't tailored towards a harsher riding sporty driving feel.

You're out of your mind. Period.

You're playing two arguements now. So you're saying the current M3's aren't good track cars but they put up good numbers on the track :slap:. Smalelr light-weight cars aren't luxurious, which is what the BMW name stands for. Luxury, Performance, and Prestige.

Guts =/= Intelligence. Maybe you forgot that Mini = BMW. Maybe you also forgot BMW is a highline auto, they don't DO simple. A simple car with a BMW logo on the front would hurt the brand name. It doesn't have a thing to do with guts but rather public perception. In what universe did 3300lb's become considered "boat" worthy? IMO 3300lbs that includes luxury, safety, enough computers to make a man from the 70's weep tears of blood, AND superb handling with more than reasonable horsepower is MORE than a compromise.

This is why you don't work in sales. You've such a narrow perception of what the automotive world should be like that were you ever to run the R&D side of an automotive company you'd be selling about as much cars as Lotus. You're mentality is more suited for niche brand marketing, and niche brand franchises are often owned by larger general companies because they don't offer enough to stand on their own two feet.
It was VERY NECESSARY for the M3 to evolve the way it did. People that drive BMW's like to feel comfortable in their cars, people that drive BMW's like to have storage space in their cars, people in BMW's want cars with seats that grab you with lumbar support that turns with you and allows a hightened sense of confidence while cornering, people that drive BMW's like their I-Drive knob and central display, people that drive BMW's like their steering wheels heated and their backs massaged while they drive, people that drive BMW's like their dashboards NOT made of plastic, THE OVERWHELMING MAJORITY OF PEOPLE THAT PURCHASE/LEASE BMW'S LIKE LUXURY AND YOU CAN'T FIT LUXURY AND LIGHTWEIGHT IN THE SAME SENTENCE. Actually, yes you can; you'll just be paying an arm and a soul for a car made entirely of carbon fibre.

And looks at the specs for the e30, now look at the specs for the e92 or the e46. Clearly the added weight isn't negatively effecting the vehicles. If you want to play the "time period doesn't matter" game, then we'll play. An e92 would smack an e30 all around a track regardless of how an e30 feels. See how stupid that was? Now tell me how the size and weight of a vehicle produce two decades ago is supposed to have any bearing on a vehicle produced in the present. Must be all those computers and safety equipment that they chose not to put in back in the late 80's (/sarcasm).


BMW brought back Mini. How much more recognition do you need? They AREN'T going to put their emblem on a minimalist vehicle. The $$$ that goes into the R&D for a niche performance vehicle that won't sell a large number of units per year would do nothing but create an intentional fiscal hemorrhage. Why would anyone with even half a brain do that to their own company?

Cheap isn't BMW's concern, that's why they're a highline auto and Toyota isn't. That's what toyota has Lexus for, and you let me know when Toyota creates a Lexus version of the FRS for an "affordable" price.

"Here's hoping a blue collar minimalist sports car has any bearing on highline auto manufactuers whose main concern is luxury/performance not simplistic low cost performance."
You're asking for 90 degree weather with a bit of snow.

Do not invent quotes and attribute them to me.

Thanks.

I'm in LA.

You're missing a gigantic chunk of crucial information here.

1. Performance drivers/automotive enthusiasts = Car Shopping Minority
2. BMW has always been a Luxury car designer, the bmw E30 was a Luxury sedan first and foremost
3. Demand determines the product. People don't go to BMW lots to buy a 2400lb SEAT, it doesn't happen. The majority of BMW consumers are looking for things BMW has offered in their lineup for well over 50 years, COMBINED with the current trends.
4. BMW currently manages to produce a 5 seater sedan, making in excess of 400 horsepower with all the luxury to go tit for tat with Mercedes benz class entry top tier vehicle, yet still has the underpinnings (read: Everything you feel BMW has forgot, such as a highly developed chassis, motorsport derived suspension etc etc) to outlap cars producing well over it's own power.

COULD bmw produce a M3 that weighted, 1000lbs less with much less power...yea they could...but why would someone want to go out and spend 60,000 dollars on a car they produced already that brings nothing new to the table except for iDrive. OR are we assuming most M buyers, are late 20 early 30 year olds who are on automotive forums that feel their life would be made better by POWER:WEIGHT

SVT is right, you're asking for 90 degree's and snow here.

What's next? are Fiat's just too small? If Fiat's would just increase their wheelbase and put a slightly larger engine more centrally located it would be a much better car..

I mean fiat's used to be so prolific in motorsports, but now now they're just fat, and with technology today there's no reason the FIAT 500 can't be a lightweight RWD coupe with leather head to toe maybe with a carbon fiber substructure too..

The only way BMW would create a car to Zdan's liking is if they made a Z1 with more cheaper materials inside similar to the 1 series interior. I think a Z1 could weigh at the least 3100 lbs but that would still be too heavy for him. If anything BMW will eventually make a RWD, MINI and that will suit him perfectly.