Explain to me why 0-60 times make a car more fun. Also explain to me why anyone would buy a Miata when most minivans have a better 0-60 times. People love to focus in on these numbers these days, hp, 0-60 times, megapixels, gigahertz. More is always better right!!!??? Wrong.

Limited will be closer to $27k than $25k.

Explain to me why good handling makes a car more fun.

0-60 time is an indicator of performance and all successful sports cars (except maybe the miata) have a combination of good handling and good power. Even a mustang, which isn't a great handling car, still handles better than your average family sedan. I don't think it is unreasonable to expect this sports car to have better acceleration than a family sedan. I'm not saying it needs to beat a 550i or a panamera. We're talking about average cars here.

Sure. Personally I like driving fast. By fast I don't mean 200mph, I mean finding the fastest way around a course, whether it's autocross, rally cross, go karting, or just a highway on ramp. When you get out on any of these courses, to me that is the height of driving enjoyment. You are really using your own skills in a way that you don't when you simply stomp on the gas pedal, let out a redneck scream, and create huge plumes of tire smoke. It's about finding the limits of the vehicle you're in, and using the limits of your own abilities, and using that to find a faster way through a turn. It's really hard to explain this, but a 40mph go kart is 10x more fun than any car I have ever driven. My WRX is a decently fast car, and it's a decent handling car, but when I get in it after go karting I may as well be driving a Camry. Sure it is faster, but I turn the wheel and expect to be flung into the side of my seat, and instead it just rolls over and the tires squeal (the WRX approaches go kart fun on a rally cross course, but unfortunately 99% of the time I'm not driving on dirt). My hope is that the BRZ gives me even a close approximation of go kart handling in a package I can still drive to work every day.

I like to drive fast too as do most auto enthusiasts and I am not looking for 400whp to light up the rear tires.

I also enjoy karting and the handling of the kart definitely is what makes it fun. However, what make the go kart enjoyable is that it has enough power to make you actually have to drive it. If karts had bumper car speed then it wouldn't be nearly as much fun.

See that's the thing right there. The go kart is fun because you can approach its limits easily, it has nothing to do with how fast you are going when you approach those limits. The go kart is fun because it has enough power and the tires are slippery enough that you have to actually drive it, instead of just holding the gas pedal down the entire time. That would be boring, like the bumper car. It's the approachable limits that make the car fun, not how fast you are going. That is exactly why this car has 200hp and Prius tires. You have to actually drive it, and it rewards you for it.

Better options for you, sure. Whether or not a car is overpriced is entirely subjective though. Everybody has different wants and needs in a car. I am not in the market for a Camry, a WRX, a Mustang, etc. so comparing this car to those is irrelevant to me. I think it's quite reasonably priced, but I am also a reasonable person and did not expect a car like this to be priced at 20k. Again, if you think a Korean car or econobox offers more of what you want at a better price point then buy one. And if spending my money on the car that I want makes me a "fanboy" then so be it. You should stop by on the BMW, Porsche, Ferrari, etc. boards and tell them they're fanboys too on your way out.

This is exactly what I mean. You're comparing a list of features on an econobox to a sports car. Free market or not, the BRZ was never ever meant to compete with a Camry and if the latter is an acceptable option for you then just buy that, the BRZ is not what you are looking for.

Obviously an M3 isn't a typical family car, but if you're saying that the 2011 mustang handles as well as an M3 I wouldn't agree with you. The new mustangs definitely handle well, better than any mustang before it, but not as well as an M3.

Even the older mustangs handle better than any family sedan (of that time) which is what I had originally said. My point was that a mustang, which is undoubtedly a muscle car and all about power, still handles better than your typical family sedan. This car, which is all about handling, should still have enough power to outrun that same family sedan. It doesn't need mustang power, but a good sports car should have a balance of both handling and power.

The difference is when you get on the gas coming out of a corner in the go kart you don't have that feeling of not picking up enough speed before the next corner.

That is where you are wrong. :bonk:


Edit:


http://www.motortrend.com/roadtests/...m3_comparison/



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Wow, its incredible how much you completely missed my point. Let me try to explain it in a way that you can understand. That's not how the free market works, wth? Yeah duh, of course that's not how the free market works because that's not what i was writing about!

This is what i was trying to say in even simpler terms. Toyota/subaru needs to make at least a small profit with each frs/brz they sell. Otherwise they won't be able to keep making the car, and production will end. However, due to the factors i stated in my previous post it costs more to build each frs/brz compared to the genesis coupe or mass produced impreza wrx, even without boost. In a free market like the us, that means toyota/subaru has direct disadvantage in pricing the frs/brz competitively to the gen coupe or even subaru's own wrx.

But yeah, it's a free market, so if toyota/subaru can't price the car competitively enough people aren't gonna buy it. Of course consumers don't care about the economic factors, they're just gonna buy what they want, and so are you. So if you think the price is gonna be so uncompetitive just buy a gen coupe then, or whatever other car you think IS worth the money, and go post in that forum. I personally will remain here and probably buy this car, and i know a lot of other people are gonna do the same thing, because based on the reviews and all the talk of what the engineers were aiming for, i have a feeling this car is gonna be worth the price, even with 150 lbft and no boost. Oh, but wait, just because i feel that way i'm wrong huh? And every new z owner and every new miata owner is wrong, just because you said so right? So ridculous some of the things you'll see posted on the web.

Free market doesn't mean all carmakers can create cars with the same specs at the same cost and msrp. That expectation is just naive and unrealistic.

There is no such thing as 'free market'. And if there was one, it wouldn't be the market for cars. Each car does not have to turn a profit. There are never two identical cars on the market, and if there were, brand reputation will make them different. Also, marketing works for a while, so you can sell quite a few sub-par overpriced cars with the help of decent marketing, before people figure it out. Once they do - the brand reputation suffers. So it's all very multi-faceted. Exchange rates are only marginally important, otherwise we'd be all driving Chinese cars already.

Post #1 :bonk:

You're right, the strengthening of the yen leading to Japan's inability to compete in the export market abroad is only of marginal importance. Tell the Japanese financial ministry that so they can stop worrying about the country's economic woes and get on with selling cars at a huge loss :slap:

That is a brilliant way to put it and I never thought about it like that as I have driven both karts and bumper cars. My RSX definitely feels like a go-kart with bumper kart performance.