Here's a good rough estimate after hours of "accurate" work.

A lot will depend on how much more power people can pull out of it. That is still a total unknown.
Many of the popular swaps are now kitted, available ready to go with a potential for far more than you will get out of the 24.
Little point in doing a swap if you can reach similar goals by modding the existing engine.
You can compare it to people that thought the other Subaru engines from WRX and STI would just pop in. The reality was that there was maybe one that every actually made it work.

Back to the drawing board. You are comparing one actual dyno reading of the old against the factory theoretical of the new. This is not apples to apples.
You need to either compare both factory numbers or two actual dynos from the same machine, on the same day, under the same condition.


There will obviously still be a gap but not nearly as severe as that looks.


https://lh3.googleusercontent.com/pr...nl-shRbclykOzY

https://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/202...3879c4a2e2.jpg
https://imagesvc.timeincapp.com/v3/f...brz-gauges.jpg

Apples to apples (in car 2022 vs in car 2017+)

No. All I did was take the curve of the new BRZ and put it up against a curve of the old BRZ. I am not shooting for apples to apples here, just a general idea. I used the peak power numbers of each car and plotted it as so. The accuracy of the curves is all that can change, but nothing drastically. If Subaru is showing a fairly accurate power curve on their 2022 BRZ cluster, then it shouldn't be very far fetched. Don't forget peak torque is 184 at 3700 RPM. Peak torque is 156 at 6700 on the 2017+ BRZ. At the lowest part of the dip, it is about 135 lb-ft. This lowest region is right around the same region that the new one peaks at. That is about 50 lb-ft of torque difference. Again, this is very generalized and not super accurate; but it's just a rough estimate, and should be a pretty good one.

Again, in case I am not making myself clear, I am not comparing dyno's. I am just comparing one general curve to the other and overlaying them based on their peak numbers. Keep in mind, too, the gap only looks so severe because of how stretched the graph is. I could have stretched it much less, and the gap would be much smaller. I just wanted to stretch it to better see specific values.

Well, like I said in another post, if the internals are strengthened to match the displacement then potential will likely go from the 350hp to 400hp and maybe higher. If the transmission is slightly stronger then the combination of the extra strength, extra potential on stock internals and extra performance from more low end torque and faster turbo spooling means this swap could be cheaper and better than paying for a built motor. For gen 2 owners, this means hitting a horsepower figure that is very respectable, approaching the limits of traction for many gears and reduces the substantial cost that comes from wanting to break the 350-400whp ceiling. For gen 1 owners who blew a motor or want to swap over building a motor, this should be an attractive option.

You do have to consider the increased compression ratio, though, making forced induction even trickier on the platform.

Good:
Looks, refreshed design, follows the original concept
Weight, not heavier than the 1st gen
Size, dimensions are almost the same
Handling should be as good or better than 1st gen
Instrument panel, I like the full digital cluster

Bad:
Front dash is too high and bulky, no pocket for storage below A/C controls
People will still be complaining about lack of power with 228 HP
Reduced redline to 7000 rpm
13.5 compression will be a disadvantage for FI kits . Reducing compression might be necessary to reach 300 HP which is costly

I am probably keeping my '14 FRS

Maybe I am totally missing what you are trying to show but your Gen one torque and HP are crossing at way too low of RPMs and none of your numbers match the published ones from the info I posted.

We can also use the K20 vs K24 for general comparisons. The bumps in the hp/tq look fairly similar between a TSX and RSX as the 2nd and 1st gen. I'm sure the difference in power potential will be similar too. We see this in other platforms too like the 1JZ vs 2JZ. There is no replacement for displacement.

Great. Now it's drooling licorice goo from the corners of it's mouth.

Stupid sticky kids.

People actually use that thing? I guess if it doesn't have the push-to-start button. But with that button occupying half the compartment there's barely enough space for some random coins.

It makes FI an issue for anyone not using e85. Power potential without E85 was already limited at 12.5:1, but there is already more power on board because of the displacement, so maybe FI on pump gas will have more modest gains, but on E85, NA gains will be greater, and on FI, the tuners will likely hit the limits of the internals before they hit the limits due to knock. In fact, I don't believe I am aware of the limits on E85 at 12.5:1; I know people have pushed the car to over 600whp on built internals. If 13.5:1 has a limit on E85 then again I am sure it exceeds the strength of the stock internals and is outside of most people's needs, but the 13.5:1 will benefit many people who just want E85 and headers, which far exceeds those with FI, which far exceeds people with FI going for big power.

The question isn't how much but for how long

The curves both cross at 5252 RPM. Won't discuss why as I am sure you and others already understand that concept. To be a little more specific on what I did, I used the HP curves and calculated the TQ from them so they can be a little more "apples to apples" in comparison. But if you match up the details that we do now, such as where peak power and peak torque occurs for each car, and then shift the curves over to those numbers, this is what we basically get. I'm probably just doing a poor job explaining it, but if you take the time to analyze the graph, you should be able to see that the known details and curves match up (obviously more or less with a good bit of room for error). It was just for fun since someone requested it. :thumbup:

If you want to see how hard I went at it, here's a quick snip. :D

EDIT: Also to clarify, this is measurement in Horsepower and lb-ft for torque.

AHHHHH there is where I was stumbling! I was looking at it with Nm numbers in my head.


OK now I get it.

Depends on the build. At modest levels, there is no reason FI on E85 can't last the typical lifecycle of a car; ie, 150k-200k or 10+ years. Quality compoenents on a good tune. I'm on E85 with a bar of boost on stock internals. If I had a built FA20 engine or the FA24 stock then 400-450whp would likely be easily achievable and reliable. That is a very respectable amount of power for 2800lbs.

Yes, sorry. As I said, I am not very good at explaining my work. :lol: I just know it made sense while I was doing it.

The car looks like Subaru had a free hand in styling it. It could have been worse.

I’ll keep my silver 2013. I love it’s elegant and graceful lines, particularly at profile. And that version of silver was only offered the first two years.

With just 50,000 miles it has years of service remaining. I drove a new 2020 recently and it was a little nicer.

Maybe just add some sway bars and basic go faster parts and call it a day. And summer performance tires.

Something still looks off to me but I can't put my finger on it. If I wake up at 2 tomorrow morning and go "AH HA" I will hold you personally responsable for my interrupted sleep!

Mine holds one chapstick. :rolleyes:

It is actually quite important a space for me. It is where I put my two gate and 3 building swipe cards I use all the time. They never stayed in the FRS cubby but fit nice and snug in the 86 one.

It's not perfect, I definitely had to do a little tweaking, more so with the 2022 graph. But it looks to line up close enough to what we see, so I'm happy with it. I'll be sure to set my alarm for 2:15AM and check the forum haha.

Forum? You wake me up at 2 and COVID be damned I am driving over there!

why are people still saying this? are we all looking at the same tach and spec sheet? 7000 is peak power, redline is clearly still beyond that..

OK, my thoughts on the new model:

First of all, a 2.4L NA was what I was calling for from the very start! It's the engine that I thought the car should have had, and the engine I expected them to use for the next gen (and was hoping for the refresh I bought). As I said long ago, it would bring just enough power to feel fast/torquey throughout the revs while still maintaining good revs and low weight. Also good to see they're still using Toyota's D-4S and not their own direct injection which is more prone to long term issues. Plus it seems to sound a little better.

As far as the styling goes, I'm a bit mixed. It looks a lot like the old one but it seems like the top portion is more round and smooth while the bottom portion is sharp and aggressive. I HATE the front plate mount. Hopefully they won't have that for states that don't require front plates but I'm pretty sure it'll just be like that for all units. Of course, if your state requires a front plate, it won't matter, but if it doesn't, it looks weird/broken. I also noticed there's no fog lights! I always like fog lights on my cars so hopefully they'll add them later? But yeah, I'm getting Ferrari FF hatchback vibes from the design.

The interior also looks similar but also not quite as flush as the old one. It has some weird shapes going on. Not horrible but just seems a bit off. The seats look more like standard seats than the outgoing seats which looked almost like racing buckets. They finally added an arm rest sort of thing at least... so there's that.

The Michelin Pilot Sport 4's are also what I said the car should have had to start with, so that's good they're standard now (you can still slide with them but they just have more grip when you want it in the rain). However, it still has that odd 215/40/18 size. I would have liked to have seen a tad more sidewall/width with 225/40/18 for the new engine but oh well. I know the less grip, the easier it is to slide.

Anyway, there's not really any surprises here. It's a little bit better in ways and a bit meh with the styling. The big hope/takeaway for me here is that it seems like this time around, they've prepped it for a performance/turbo model. The engine now has an oil cooler, there's a wider rear track for wider tires, and everything's been beefed up to suggest it. I guess time will tell. Regardless, I'm happy to see that they haven't just given up on this model and that we'll get another round of this unique platform!

Getting ride of that hideous 3rd brake light, or at least moving it onto the trunk lid, is a great step forward.

https://i.imgur.com/VzpmeN7.jpg

I'm really curious if it's the exact same transmission, or if there were internal changes if it's not a new unit.

Somewhere I recall them mentioning it was totally revised. But I don't know exactly what that means. I highly doubt it will be much different from the outgoing model - just tweaked to better suit the new engine.

Interesting! I noticed the final drive changed but the gearing looked the same so I fear the same gearset is used. I'll be keeping an eye out on part numbers, and hopefully a transmission shop will get to break one open in time.

If a turbo tS happens, idunno. I actually think the internet would fall apart, there would be fires in cities, riots, stock market crash, midget porn would be mainstream.. idunno I just doubt it.

The internet would probably still complain though, along the tune of "should've had this 10 years ago, I already bought a based Elantra and now I can't afford the 40k(cad) BRZ".

It's nice to dream though.

They say that the AT has bee "improved" but make no mention of the MT.

Where did you find the final gear numbers? I must be blind since I have looked for that.

I know this was never going to happen, but for me the perfect second-generation car would have been just to take the first-gen car and drop in the new 2.4 engine.

(While I'm at it wishing for impossible things, a tiny detail, I would also have preferred a more cohesive instrument panel, with (big surprise) all analog gauges. I appreciate the current analog instruments, but that hybrid layout with the small digital screen kind of stuck in there on the right side of the display clashes and is incoherent).

Yes, I know. I'm the only one here who feels this way.

Post #63, Page 5 of this thread.

Oh that is Opie's prediction list. None of that part of it has been officially confirmed yet.

Then why is it green!?!?

Because he was a bit optimistic in awarding himself confirmations.


I know people hate it when I say this and I am not being negative but until we see something from Subaru stating those are the numbers they are still questionable. His insider info was off on many other specs (not by a lot but still off) so that leaves some of the list as a best guess. I want to know the actual ratio not a best guess.

If they switched to 5/114 theres a better chance I get one after buying out the 2018 STI rather than a 2022 STI. I can use my winter wheels.

It all depends if I can get away with RWD and 2 seats year round.

I really, really can’t wait to hear how the car drives and of course to drive one myself. The exterior look is growing on me, and I really like the bespoke interior, it reminds me of the MK1 MR2 and MR2 Spyder.

As far as what’s expected for driving characteristics, I’m intrigued by the “increased torsional stiffness” and “elements borrowed from Subaru Global Platform.” I was all for the original tail-happy twin until I owned the tS and realized that the car’s sharpness was more of a fun factor to me.

I don’t want to set my expectations too high but if this MK2 BRZ offers sharper feel and more precise handling than the tS then it’s going to be a blast to drive with the new mid-range torque.

The only thing is that lately Subaru’s NA engines have been pretty uninspiring, and even the 2.4t in the Outback and Legacy XT feel pretty numb in the low-end range. I’m anticipating that most reviews will critique the engine not because of lack of power but for it’s feel.

I’m excited for this car. The driving impressions are going to be a huge deal. It has some big shoes to fill.