The US Mk4 non-turbo was offered with VVT-i. The JDM Turbo was offered with VVT-i.

The JDM non-turbo (with VVT-i) also had a V161 6-speed option.

The JDM Supras were better. Period.

(Not even getting into the Mk3s... 1JZGTE Twin Turbo R vs any 7MGTE? Any questions?)

(For the sake of keeping this organized-ish. Lol)

1.) Having the FT kill off the tC brand is unlikely. The price difference between the two will have people still purchasing the tC since the cost is much less than of the FT.

2.) Comparing the Ugly Solara to the Not-as-ugly-as-the-Solara Camry is the same as comparing a Pond to a Lake. (Which reminds me, why did they even make the Solara? It serves no purpose whatsoever. lol) If they wanted a mileage out of their car and comfort--a 3dr Yaris could have been a better option. Also, the solara is anything but practical.

3.) By placing the FT into the Scion brand, it defeats the whole purpose of a cheap sports car under 20k though no? (Comparing both vehicles at base price that is.)

4.) Most college students who have the funds to buy the FT are a smaller group. Whereas high school graduates Freshman college students are getting these cars via Gift from their parents. Which brings up another point. If the FT can't kill the tC sales how will Scion get back up on their feet? They're already in much trouble as they already are. Let the brand die and revive TRD cars that aren't trucks.

Which is why the Solara is the wonderful sales success and still in production?

Majority are going in looking for a two-door sporty coupe. They can only buy one. I see it the other way around. Few of the masses will pay the extra $$$ for the FT, and after an early ZOMGWTFBBQ! new car sales spurt, the numbers will fall rather quickly as the masses choose with their wallets, not the driving experience.

OT: but am i the only one not using noob settings? Its page 10 people!

Ooh thanks for reminding me. I usually change that setting on forums but I forgot to do that.

Good show people :popcorn:. Very interesting discussions happening.

The people saying that making the FT-86 a scion is going to have anymore effect on tC sales than keeping it a Toyota are fooling themselves. There is no way a $25k free revving, light weight, RWD, tiny "sports" car is going to steal sales from a $18k midsize, torquey, FWD "sports" car regardless of the brand. Just no way. And even if it did we're talking more profit $$$ so I doubt they care if it did.

Some people say corporations are all about making money and that's probably true. But sometimes people get into business to make and sell good/desirable products and make a living doing it :iono:. Thats what I see. The FT-86 isn't about separating people out of their money it's about recreating that feeling of driving a fun car. Imagine this, is Toyoda-san going to be driving this car?

I've read about this a few times and I gotta say...where does the STi fit in with that program? Probably at the bottom...if its even an eligible model. I'd expect the 216a will also be at the bottom, $1500 tops. And no, a Subaru model of similar options is not going to be less than $1500 over a Scion to make it 'cheaper'.

I'd get more specifics before throwing that bit of information around. Wherever the STi sits in that program, expect the 216a to be in the neighborhood. Sports cars historically are not usually part of any special rebate program. There's no need for them to be as their usually low volume cars (low production numbers).

I LOL'ed because of your avatar compared to the car you drive.

also how many people are desperate to not have it as a scion

Lol I don't think anyone from Toyota is reading this
I hope this thread makes it there eventually, cus then they can see why it was a mistake

That's what I was getting at, some argue that the masses are the low budget college kids. Low budget won't be in the same sentence as the FT-86. Low budget for 30+yr old's but not low budget for college kids. It kinda the saying, you can't eat your cake and have it too. People can't argue Scion is for low budget people and then say the FT-86 is going to steal sales from the tC. I suspect the FT to be priced out of the reach of "low budget" College kids. It will be expensive enough out of their reach I think and will be bought by the "real" masses that make up Scion, the 30somethings...

Actually the STi comes out to the higher end, $3300 off. The program basically does 2% below dealer invoice. Trust me it works. I have personal experience with it. It isn't that hard to do.

Edit: I should preface that it also depends on which STI model you go with and which factory installed options you get as well. But the STI is towards the top end of the discount, rather than being towards the bottom end of $1300. Ultimately it doesn't matter as if you want the car when it first comes out and don't want to haggle or deal with dealer mark up this is a simple 1-2-3 process.

I don't know about competing with TC sales or not, I would presume no it won't be competition for it since that would ultimately lead to the demise of one of the two cars. But as far as budget priced car for college students I would disagree. I'm currently in school and I'm very aware of what people are driving. You would be surprised at the high percentage of kids who have nice cars. Not all of them are dependent soley on their income. Many are gifts from their parents, from hardworking, or savings. If this car is around $20k-25k I would bet a ton of college students are going to have one. I may be one of them, that is if I don't buy a 5.0 instead. I'll wait to see though.

The 86 won't hurt TC sales. Why?

--The 86 will be priced above the TC.
I assume Scion will want to place the 86 at the top of the pedestal.(When does a top model ever cost less?)

--I assume Scion will be using the term "sports car" a lot with the 86, and I've noticed that the TC is placed under "compact car". The word "sport" is rarely used in any of it's descriptions (official or not)

--It's like saying the 370Z steals sales away from the Altima Coupe.
The V6 Altima is $30k and the base 370Z is $31k.
Close enough cars in the numbers, but soooooo different.


The only way the 86 will hurt the TC is if a ton of people walk into the dealership and demand the most expensive car without test driving or even looking at the specs.

TC buyers-want a sporty look, but equal comfort and a bunch of cool interior features.

86 Buyers- preference a sporty look and a sporty drive over comfort and etc. More so than the TC buyer.

These two types of people exist, therefore both cars will continue to sell in coexistence.

Most of altima's sales come from the 4 cyl version though, which is a whopping 11G less.

Consider yourself lucky then. When my son's hit college, I'll be sure they can get around, just not in a 25k dollar sports car. After they graduate, then we ca talk about a sports car.




Great example.

I really hope LSD comes 'standard' on this car if its being sold as a Scion.

They want $2200 to install the TRD LSD for the xB as an option. Thats insanely overpriced.

tC doesn't even have the option to install it. Dragon, tC come standard with LSD?

that is true, but I chose the V6 because it's closer to the 370z. Similarly how the TC is close to the 86.

And inorder for the 370Z to hurt Altima V6 coupe sales, it would have to mean that EVERYONE who is looking at an Altima V6 coupe wants more performance and less comfort/amenities, which just isn't realistic.

toyota doesn't care about you, they only care about the massess. put yourself in toyota's shoes. I'll buy one if it does come out as a scion, and no I'm not 18, but a badge should not matter that much even if you have followed the development of a car this far already.

true that

Not all of this thread was about hating on Scion ;). Some of it was saying who cares. Even if noone is asking for it to be a Scion there are plenty of people who will still accept is as the new 86 regardless of the badging; Toyota, Subaru, or Scion.

I'll be glad if we even see it stateside without getting a butchered interpretation :iono:. The FT-86 is still a cool car IMHO.

so i just visited the sciondimension website... and it hit me like a slap to the face from a girl at the bar... is the FT86's name going to be the Scion Dimension???

^ same thought ran through my head. I hope not

Its a fwd. You know that. Its a lot harder (more labor) to do a diff in a fwd compared to a rear axle.

From experience?

Dimension? no that has to be talking about Scion entering a new dimension or entering Scion's dimension... At least I hope so. Otherwise the guys wanting a name instead of an alpha numerical designation are getting exactly what they wanted :lol:.

It will be some like FR-S , XF.. sD ... something along those lines with scion .. but most likely the FR-S ..

the line "nice shoes lets fuck" doesnt work all the time

scion dimension was also the term used for the release of the tc2. the car will not be called the dimension.

alright good... thats a terrible name for a car

I still vote sC, for sports car/sports coupe . . . it'll be almost like a return of the lexus sc400/300.

You have a lucky son! My parents promised me they would never buy me a car..(not for money reasons)

because they hate you?

lol nah they're good parents, they just think getting their kids cars is excessive and spoils them. It's okay at least I will feel extra proud of my first car, since it'll have been bought with my own money.

Well I won't pretend I'm happy with this, where I go to school there is no such thing as a senior who doesn't have a car :( I get pretty pissed when I see that kid with his M5...

Scion can so suck a fat one. They're not getting a dime out of me.

then go with Subie very, simple as that

scion=toyota:bonk:

I still don't know why people don't understand that.. You lift the hood on any scion and everything is labeled Toyota. they are built by Toyota and Sold at Toyota Dealerships.. Its like Old Navy=Gap=Banana Republic .. all they same stuff just at different prices..

Don't worry. My parents did not buy me a car either. I saved up like 4 years for that thing. It was well worth it. Taught me how to save up money for major purchases, how to take care of my car (if something broke, guess who would have to pay to get it fixed and no it wasn't my parents), how to be proud of something you saved up for...etc. I don't plan on buying my kids a car outright. They will have to work and save up for it.

True, Scion and Toyota are the same, but I think people are also concerned about what kind of image the car will give off to others who see them.

As of right now the image scion gives off to other car enthusiasts is Ricer-wanna-be, Douche-bag, poser or high-school-pimple-face-kid (Of course there's also an exception that not everyone who owns a scion is like that). Its the same with clothing. Abercrombie and Fitch > Hollister > American Eagle > Aeropostal > Walmart.

Image plays a role in everything, but of course--not everyone really cares.

Oh yeah? My IS labeled Toyota all over it, does that make it a Toyota? What about LFA? If it's all the same, I should choose 4 Runner over GX460 because they are the same. The different is the pricing, isn't that right? And no, not all Scion dealerships are with Toyota ones.

its sad the people care about image that. much.. most of the time it keeps them from trying something they might end up really enjoying...

but I do own a few of these .. My boys company makes them ..
http://a8.sphotos.ak.fbcdn.net/hphot..._1511462_n.jpg