A Few Questions

[Feathergun]

Hey everyone, I have a few questions for some seasoned MT professionals with specific regard to the 2016 Scion FR-S.

Preface: In February 2015, I purchased a used 2013 Scion FR-S 10 Series with 30k Miles on it, it was an automatic transmission and not exactly what I set out to get. I travel a lot for work in sales and it is important that I make it to my appointments, my other vehicle 99' Ford Explorer Sport was having issues at the time so I just went for it. Two months ago I decided I wanted to drive a Manual Transmission vehicle, and I love my FR-S so I found a great deal to trade in for a new 2016 Scion Fr-S MT. This was with about 1.5 hours of practice driving stick in my LIFE before driving it off the lot. So needless to say it was a little rocky but really not too bad. I studied driving manual transmission pretty heavy for a long time before making the final decision.

I've got 800 Miles on the car now and I've been driving it for about 3 weeks. I just have a few questions regarding Manual Driving and some things I've ran into while driving around town that I want to make sure I'm doing correctly.

1.) I read about synchronizers that help align the speed of the engine and the clutch disk, does the Scion FR-S have such a thing? I've noticed that not Rev matching downshifts are rough, and I've noticed that letting the clutch out slower while downshifting helps smooth it out (although i presume this is just the clutch wearing against the pressure plate and thus translating to increased wear on clutch. Neither me or anyone I know really has ever owned a manual transmission vehicle so I've not had anyone to ask these questions to.

2.) Are manual cars such as this that require clutch to be depress before starting able to have some sort of remote start apparatus?

3.) Parking lots. I have a store near my house I visit frequently with nasty short but tall speed bumps I have to break hard enough to almost stall out, so I typically have to depress clutch, break until momentum carries me over, then get back in motion again, how would someone more seasoned handle this scenario and in what gear?

4.) I notice clunking sounds when shifting after being in neutral before coming to a complete stop, is that bad? Like when you're breaking coming up to a line of cars and taffic starts moving, you've already downshifted through second gear and have gone into nuetral to finish coming to a stop, now you get back in gear so you shift into second and clunk, car doesn't make the same sound while stationary.

5.) When you have to stop quickly, like traffic going down 2 lane road with no center lane suddenly stops to turn left and as you approach they finally turn and traffic takes off again, take the car out of gear into neutral and then guess at which gear to go back into when you can proceed? or do you downshift through the gears as your speed drops while depressing clutch the entire time?

6.) Starting to move: I go into first gear and find smoothest shifts to be near 4k RPM or slightly lower into second. Then keep on the gas in second and then usually in 3rd for like 5 seconds and then shift into 6th. I know people skip gears all the time but is there anything bad about going from 3rd to 6th as long as my timing on RPM drop is accurate?

7.) Gear shifting, does it get smoother as the shifting mechanism breaks in over time? 3rd seems to be getting easier to move the shifter knob into but its still rough going into 5th and 6th, talking specifically about the clunkyness of the shifting apparatus.

8.) Slow driving in general, I've heard some people say if they are moving at all they shift into second,when i'm in a small parking lot and approaching stop sign I usually just ride it out in 1st and then coast, but if you have to drive super slow I've noticed 1st gear starts to almost try to engine break and go at the same time, what am I supposed to do?


I think thats it for now, thank you in advance for your insight guys.

[new2subaru]

Originally Posted by Feathergun

Hey everyone, I have a few questions for some seasoned MT professionals with specific regard to the 2016 Scion FR-S.

Preface: In February 2015, I purchased a used 2013 Scion FR-S 10 Series with 30k Miles on it, it was an automatic transmission and not exactly what I set out to get. I travel a lot for work in sales and it is important that I make it to my appointments, my other vehicle 99' Ford Explorer Sport was having issues at the time so I just went for it. Two months ago I decided I wanted to drive a Manual Transmission vehicle, and I love my FR-S so I found a great deal to trade in for a new 2016 Scion Fr-S MT. This was with about 1.5 hours of practice driving stick in my LIFE before driving it off the lot. So needless to say it was a little rocky but really not too bad. I studied driving manual transmission pretty heavy for a long time before making the final decision.

I've got 800 Miles on the car now and I've been driving it for about 3 weeks. I just have a few questions regarding Manual Driving and some things I've ran into while driving around town that I want to make sure I'm doing correctly.

1.) I read about synchronizers that help align the speed of the engine and the clutch disk, does the Scion FR-S have such a thing? I've noticed that not Rev matching downshifts are rough, and I've noticed that letting the clutch out slower while downshifting helps smooth it out (although i presume this is just the clutch wearing against the pressure plate and thus translating to increased wear on clutch. Neither me or anyone I know really has ever owned a manual transmission vehicle so I've not had anyone to ask these questions to.

2.) Are manual cars such as this that require clutch to be depress before starting able to have some sort of remote start apparatus?

3.) Parking lots. I have a store near my house I visit frequently with nasty short but tall speed bumps I have to break hard enough to almost stall out, so I typically have to depress clutch, break until momentum carries me over, then get back in motion again, how would someone more seasoned handle this scenario and in what gear?

4.) I notice clunking sounds when shifting after being in neutral before coming to a complete stop, is that bad? Like when you're breaking coming up to a line of cars and taffic starts moving, you've already downshifted through second gear and have gone into nuetral to finish coming to a stop, now you get back in gear so you shift into second and clunk, car doesn't make the same sound while stationary.

5.) When you have to stop quickly, like traffic going down 2 lane road with no center lane suddenly stops to turn left and as you approach they finally turn and traffic takes off again, take the car out of gear into neutral and then guess at which gear to go back into when you can proceed? or do you downshift through the gears as your speed drops while depressing clutch the entire time?

6.) Starting to move: I go into first gear and find smoothest shifts to be near 4k RPM or slightly lower into second. Then keep on the gas in second and then usually in 3rd for like 5 seconds and then shift into 6th. I know people skip gears all the time but is there anything bad about going from 3rd to 6th as long as my timing on RPM drop is accurate?

7.) Gear shifting, does it get smoother as the shifting mechanism breaks in over time? 3rd seems to be getting easier to move the shifter knob into but its still rough going into 5th and 6th, talking specifically about the clunkyness of the shifting apparatus.

8.) Slow driving in general, I've heard some people say if they are moving at all they shift into second,when i'm in a small parking lot and approaching stop sign I usually just ride it out in 1st and then coast, but if you have to drive super slow I've noticed 1st gear starts to almost try to engine break and go at the same time, what am I supposed to do?


I think thats it for now, thank you in advance for your insight guys.

This part stumped me. Are you saying an AT can't get you to work on time?

The rest, just get a feel for it.

[BRZ'13]

1) Yes. transmission has syncros. I think triple on 1st and 2nd? not 100% sure. Not rev matching downshifts will always be rough and letting out the clutch will help but yes it wears it out. Anytime you use the clutch your wearing it out. Try pressing gas a bit while you downshift to get the revs up (heel toe or quick blimp)

2.) Yes & Yes but i think handbrake MUST be up

3) i usually go 2km over speed bumps on a angle (lowered on coils) in first gear.

4.) normal. transmission is clunky.

5.) whatever doesn't get you killed lol i prefer downshifting

6.) probably fine but i normally shift in order

7.) gets smoother. change tranny oil and you will notice difference and get a heavier shift knob.

8.) 2nd gear in a small parking lot seems crazy but i normally shift at 6k

[Feathergun]

Originally Posted by new2subaru

This part stumped me. Are you saying an AT can't get you to work on time?

The rest, just get a feel for it.

Sorry no, not what I meant. I just meant I had always wanted one of the twins, when my Ford was having issues it wasn't getting me to work on time so I had to get a new vehicle, there weren't any other FRS or BRZ locally and so I settled for the AT one that was at the dealership.

[Ultramaroon]

Originally Posted by Feathergun

1.) I read about synchronizers that help align the speed of the engine and the clutch disk, does the Scion FR-S have such a thing? I've noticed that not Rev matching downshifts are rough, and I've noticed that letting the clutch out slower while downshifting helps smooth it out (although i presume this is just the clutch wearing against the pressure plate and thus translating to increased wear on clutch. Neither me or anyone I know really has ever owned a manual transmission vehicle so I've not had anyone to ask these questions to.

You are spot on. Work on rev-matching your downshifts. If your passenger can't tell when you've engaged the clutch, you're doing it right. That being said, meh, it's just a clutch. Everyone, I mean EVERYONE blows a shift now and then.

2.) Are manual cars such as this that require clutch to be depress before starting able to have some sort of remote start apparatus?

I don't know! That's a good question.

3.) Parking lots. I have a store near my house I visit frequently with nasty short but tall speed bumps I have to break hard enough to almost stall out, so I typically have to depress clutch, break until momentum carries me over, then get back in motion again, how would someone more seasoned handle this scenario and in what gear?

I hate sharp speedbumps. If I approach one while idling along in a parking lot I always step on the clutch and rest my front wheels against it. Then I tap the throttle and feed out just enough clutch to engage and let the engine inertia pull the wheels over. Clutch immediately disengaged after that. Usually I have enough momentum that the rears follow nicely.

Driving smoothly in first gear near idle is particularly challenging in this car. I tend to disengage the clutch at the hint of a lurch. You'll get the hang of it.

4.) I notice clunking sounds when shifting after being in neutral before coming to a complete stop, is that bad? Like when you're breaking coming up to a line of cars and taffic starts moving, you've already downshifted through second gear and have gone into nuetral to finish coming to a stop, now you get back in gear so you shift into second and clunk, car doesn't make the same sound while stationary.

That clunk is normal. In neutral with the clutch engaged the engine is spinning the friction disc, input shaft, and midshaft. When you step on the clutch and pick a gear, the syncro brings all that rotating mass to a screeching halt. If you step on the clutch and wait a couple seconds before engaging a gear, you'll notice no clunk. Why? The input side quit spinning.

5.) When you have to stop quickly, like traffic going down 2 lane road with no center lane suddenly stops to turn left and as you approach they finally turn and traffic takes off again, take the car out of gear into neutral and then guess at which gear to go back into when you can proceed? or do you downshift through the gears as your speed drops while depressing clutch the entire time?

Totally depends on the situation. The proper advice is to encourage you to work on being in the proper gear to respond to any situation as needed. Always rake through the gears even if you don't plan on engaging the clutch. Don't skip gates.

I do occasionally but that's another lesson.

6.) Starting to move: I go into first gear and find smoothest shifts to be near 4k RPM or slightly lower into second. Then keep on the gas in second and then usually in 3rd for like 5 seconds and then shift into 6th. I know people skip gears all the time but is there anything bad about going from 3rd to 6th as long as my timing on RPM drop is accurate?

Yes, it can be bad. Refer back to syncros and their purpose. They are there to provide sliding friction between the input and output sections of the transmission to match speeds before engaging gears. If you accelerate to redline in third gear and step on the clutch sure, you can let the engine RPM drop. While you're still in third gear, how fast is the input side still spinning? (rhetorical) Then you skip fourth and fifth gear syncros and grab a handful of sixth. That's a shitload of heat being dumped straight into one little syncro. Better to rake through fourth and fifth with the clutch still disengaged. Or, pause in neutral to give the input side time to spool down. It will take longer than you think but if you get it right you will feel the target gear drop right in.

7.) Gear shifting, does it get smoother as the shifting mechanism breaks in over time? 3rd seems to be getting easier to move the shifter knob into but its still rough going into 5th and 6th, talking specifically about the clunkyness of the shifting apparatus.

It gets better. The synchros are not effective when they are new. It took mine a good 10,000 miles to really lap into each other nicely.

8.) Slow driving in general, I've heard some people say if they are moving at all they shift into second,when i'm in a small parking lot and approaching stop sign I usually just ride it out in 1st and then coast, but if you have to drive super slow I've noticed 1st gear starts to almost try to engine break and go at the same time, what am I supposed to do?

Clutch is your friend. Work on feathering it. You are noticing the engine switch modes from 100% fuel cut to kicking back alive at, I think, around 1200 RPM. Normal for all modern engines but this one brakes HARD.

[FR-Sky]

The questions that you have remind me of myself few years ago. lol

I usually go 1,2,3,5 for regular drive. I only put 6th gear on freeway.
I discovered this trick, you could try it yourself in a empty parking lot first.
Use 2nd gear keep it 6mph,, it will cruise itself like automatic without pressing any gas. Hope that helps you in the parking lot looking for parking or traffic.

[WorldRallyB]

Originally Posted by Feathergun

2.) Are manual cars such as this that require clutch to be depress before starting able to have some sort of remote start apparatus?

I haven't heard of anyone attempting to install remote start on a newer manual vehicle.. sounds incredibly difficult and no shop wants to take liability if you happen to leave it in gear

Originally Posted by Feathergun

3.) Parking lots. I have a store near my house I visit frequently with nasty short but tall speed bumps I have to break hard enough to almost stall out, so I typically have to depress clutch, break until momentum carries me over, then get back in motion again, how would someone more seasoned handle this scenario and in what gear?

Speed bumps? You mean those mini jumps in rural neighborhoods? i take them at 30 speed

Originally Posted by Feathergun

4.) I notice clunking sounds when shifting after being in neutral before coming to a complete stop, is that bad? Like when you're breaking coming up to a line of cars and taffic starts moving, you've already downshifted through second gear and have gone into neutral to finish coming to a stop, now you get back in gear so you shift into second and clunk, car doesn't make the same sound while stationary.

Just the nature of small and light cars my friend, something you'll have to get use to

Originally Posted by Feathergun

5.) When you have to stop quickly, like traffic going down 2 lane road with no center lane suddenly stops to turn left and as you approach they finally turn and traffic takes off again, take the car out of gear into neutral and then guess at which gear to go back into when you can proceed? or do you downshift through the gears as your speed drops while depressing clutch the entire time?

Quickly? You wont have time to downshift. You will learn whats the best gear to throw it into the more you drive, don't worry about that. I hardly ever downshift because brake pads are cheaper than a tranny

Originally Posted by Feathergun

6.) Starting to move: I go into first gear and find smoothest shifts to be near 4k RPM or slightly lower into second. Then keep on the gas in second and then usually in 3rd for like 5 seconds and then shift into 6th. I know people skip gears all the time but is there anything bad about going from 3rd to 6th as long as my timing on RPM drop is accurate?

Skipping gears is 100% a okay as long as you keep it in the proper rev range. It's "so okay" that C7 vettes actually monitor your acceleration from a stop and if you're not into the throttle enough it locks-out gears 2 & 3 and forces you to 4th.. not kidding

Originally Posted by Feathergun

8.) Slow driving in general, I've heard some people say if they are moving at all they shift into second,when i'm in a small parking lot and approaching stop sign I usually just ride it out in 1st and then coast, but if you have to drive super slow I've noticed 1st gear starts to almost try to engine break and go at the same time, what am I supposed to do?

I'm never in 1st unless i come to a complete stop, that's just my habit

[humfrz]

Originally Posted by Feathergun

Hey everyone, I have a few questions for some seasoned MT professionals with specific regard to the 2016 Scion FR-S.


I think thats it for now, thank you in advance for your insight guys.

Hello @Feathergun and welcome to MT driving..........

Well, ol @Ultramaroon pretty much covered it. I'll just add my short shifting spew:

* Remember, a warmer transmission is a happier transmission.

* I would suggest that when shifting, wind up the last gear pretty tight (4-5,000 rpms) before shifting into the next higher gear.

* Also, when shifting, pull (or push) the shift lever slowly and firmly into the next gear.

* It's not a toggle switch ..... the lever is moving heavy transmission parts.

* I suggest you NOT "lazy leg" it ……. be sure to push the clutch pedal all the way to the floor.

The FR-S can be a bit touchy to clitch/shift because the clutch has a high engagement point, the car has a relatively lite flywheel and the engine has relative low torque.

The more you practice the better you will get at it ..... then it will become second nature. Well, most of the time ..... sometimes you won't get it right .....

Heck, I've been shifting vehicles (including tractors) since I was 5 years old ... let's see that's been ...... 68 years now ........ and I still "kill" my FR-S just about once a week......


humfrz

[Feathergun]

Originally Posted by humfrz

Hello @Feathergun and welcome to MT driving..........

Well, ol @Ultramaroon pretty much covered it. I'll just add my short shifting spew:

* Remember, a warmer transmission is a happier transmission.

* I would suggest that when shifting, wind up the last gear pretty tight (4-5,000 rpms) before shifting into the next higher gear.

* Also, when shifting, pull (or push) the shift lever slowly and firmly into the next gear.

* It's not a toggle switch ..... the lever is moving heavy transmission parts.

* I suggest you NOT "lazy leg" it ……. be sure to push the clutch pedal all the way to the floor.

The FR-S can be a bit touchy to clitch/shift because the clutch has a high engagement point, the car has a relatively lite flywheel and the engine has relative low torque.

The more you practice the better you will get at it ..... then it will become second nature. Well, most of the time ..... sometimes you won't get it right .....

Heck, I've been shifting vehicles (including tractors) since I was 5 years old ... let's see that's been ...... 68 years now ........ and I still "kill" my FR-S just about once a week......


humfrz

Thanks, that makes me a feel a lot better. I'm stalling the engine maybe once every 3 days. Like today, I was reversing out of a gas station parking spot and some guy walked right behind me. I was already stopped and then shifted into first and trying to start moving as I started rolling back into him and then it went to hell and I stalled =( Outside of that, really the only thing that gets me anymore is I'm trying desperately to get faster at going from neutral, into gear, and beginning movement as I think at a stop light you're supposed to take it out of gear. Its when i'm in hectic traffic and don't want to be a burden to the people behind me when the light switches to green quicker than expected that I go through all the motions too fast and end up stalling.

[Feathergun]

Yes, it can be bad. Refer back to syncros and their purpose. They are there to provide sliding friction between the input and output sections of the transmission to match speeds before engaging gears. If you accelerate to redline in third gear and step on the clutch sure, you can let the engine RPM drop. While you're still in third gear, how fast is the input side still spinning? (rhetorical) Then you skip fourth and fifth gear syncros and grab a handful of sixth. That's a shitload of heat being dumped straight into one little syncro. Better to rake through fourth and fifth with the clutch still disengaged. Or, pause in neutral to give the input side time to spool down. It will take longer than you think but if you get it right you will feel the target gear drop right in.

So when you say accelerate you go 1,2,3 and then clutch hold shift into 4, then 5, then 6 then release clutch?

I guess I forgot that RPMs are only relatively accurately representing driveline speed if you are incrementally shifting through all the gears. If you're going 70mph and depress clutch it would still probably only take a few seconds to drop to engine idle on rpm gauge but things are turning much faster and thats not the best indicator.

[Ultramaroon]

Originally Posted by Feathergun

Its when i'm in hectic traffic and don't want to be a burden to the people behind me when the light switches to green quicker than expected that I go through all the motions too fast and end up stalling.

Technically, you're supposed to be ready to go at any time but I'm not standing on my clutch for 2 minutes or however long.

As considerate as you are, in this case never mind making others wait. You're in front and there's no danger. Take your time and get it right.

[humfrz]

Originally Posted by Feathergun

........................Outside of that, really the only thing that gets me anymore is I'm trying desperately to get faster at going from neutral, into gear, and beginning movement as I think at a stop light you're supposed to take it out of gear. Its when i'm in hectic traffic and don't want to be a burden to the people behind me when the light switches to green quicker than expected that I go through all the motions too fast and end up stalling.

Well, yes, if its going to be a long light, its best to slip it out of gear. That will decrease the load on the throw out bearing and extend its life.

So, I don't worry about getting away from a light too quickly, because I want to be sure the intersection is clear of drivers "extending" their green light ..... if you get my drift.

Yep, a little more gas when you're starting off, until you get the hang of it, will preclude a lot of stalls. The clutch can handle it ...... that's its job .....


humfrz

[imaguitar]

I think a while back I read somewhere that double de-clutching will help your synchros if you plan to skip gears.
Just take the lever out of the gear you're in &, whilst in neutral, engage the clutch shortly, then disengage & slowly but firmly put the lever into the gear you want (usually 6th if you've been revving the low gears way up).

[Ultramaroon]

Originally Posted by Feathergun

So when you say accelerate you go 1,2,3 and then clutch hold shift into 4, then 5, then 6 then release clutch?

I guess I forgot that RPMs are only relatively accurately representing driveline speed if you are incrementally shifting through all the gears. If you're going 70mph and depress clutch it would still probably only take a few seconds to drop to engine idle on rpm gauge but things are turning much faster and thats not the best indicator.

Yes.

Engine RPM is just that, the speed of the engine. Keep in mind that the transmission works backwards as well. If you're rolling in gear, the clutch friction disc will be rotating at whatever speed the engine would be rotating given the speed of the vehicle and the gear selected.

That's why you don't dowshift into second gear at 70 mph.