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Old 12-18-2010, 09:06 PM   #86
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Thing that pissed me off about Forza and its swaps was the Mk3 Supra. You can only buy the 1GGTE version. Then you have to pay to upgrade by swapping in a 7M (this is a completely alien concept in North America). Or you can upgrade by swapping in a 2JZ (fair enough). But you can't just go and buy a freakin' 1JZ car or even swap in the motor. WTF? Twin Turbo R anybody???

Plus I think I remember looking at the mods and being allowed to upgrade the 'driveshaft' on FWD cars. Fail.

This was on Forza 2. Visual customization was pretty cool though.

As for the visuals of GT5 standard vs Forza 2 (haven't played newer ones as I was turned off by their weak physics). GT5 standard is still very superior to Forza 2.

In the name of fairness, GT5 fails by allowing pretty much unlimited rear camber adjustment on solid axle cars. You would need some serious machine work for each adjustment.

Also GT5 doesn't allow the same degree of customization on the transmission as they used to. (ie I can't adjust my final drive, or specific gear ratios like I could in the earlier games.)
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Old 12-18-2010, 11:05 PM   #87
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So Forza let you swap VH45DETT engine to 240z? Swap EZ30R into GC8? Cuz it's realistic swap and it's been done

VH45DETT in 240z

EG33 in Impreza
I'm not sure about those two... I can't say I've spent much time with engine conversions, I just know in general that the conversions offered are usually common ones...

Edit: Might I add for the 240Z that I've put the RB26DETT in one of mine, just as an example.

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Thing that pissed me off about Forza and its swaps was the Mk3 Supra. You can only buy the 1GGTE version. Then you have to pay to upgrade by swapping in a 7M (this is a completely alien concept in North America). Or you can upgrade by swapping in a 2JZ (fair enough). But you can't just go and buy a freakin' 1JZ car or even swap in the motor. WTF? Twin Turbo R anybody???
Is this in Forza 2 still? In F3 you can swap the 7M, 1JZ or 2JZ into the MKIII (I believe it comes stock with the 1GGTE?) But you CAN swap the 1JZ in for sure... I know because I've got a MKIII w/ 1JZ in my game of Forza.

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Plus I think I remember looking at the mods and being allowed to upgrade the 'driveshaft' on FWD cars. Fail.

This was on Forza 2. Visual customization was pretty cool though.
I agree about the driveshaft thing....

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As for the visuals of GT5 standard vs Forza 2 (haven't played newer ones as I was turned off by their weak physics). GT5 standard is still very superior to Forza 2.
You CANNOT use Forza 2 as a comparison for when there is Forza 3 out - Forza 3 is SOOOO far out of Forza 2's league that you would have to be stupid to use F2 as a comparison to GT5 instead of F3.

Would be like using GT3 as a comparison to Forza 3....

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In the name of fairness, GT5 fails by allowing pretty much unlimited rear camber adjustment on solid axle cars. You would need some serious machine work for each adjustment.

Also GT5 doesn't allow the same degree of customization on the transmission as they used to. (ie I can't adjust my final drive, or specific gear ratios like I could in the earlier games.)
This is one of the things I've noticed people talking about in GT5. Almost all of the car suspension/etc. settings I see are posted as numbers between 1 and 10... How is that at all realistic? F3 actually uses the correct units. For example the spring rates in F3 are actually given as kg/mm or lbs/ft and also have realistic ranges. I don't see how you can precisely tune your car when you only have 10 points of adjustment...

Another example would be the transmission - fully adjustable gear ratio's and final drive ratio on F3, and as far as I can tell only one adjustment on GT5 which is how high you want your top speed.

And they call GT5 a simluator?

Edit: I just want to add that I'm not a Forza fanboy, at all - Up until GT4 I thought the GT series was the best racing sim available... When F3 came out it topped GT4 and from then I've never though GT5 was consistently good enough to beat F3.
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Old 12-18-2010, 11:17 PM   #88
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Snaps View Post
I'm not sure about those two... I can't say I've spent much time with engine conversions, I just know in general that the conversions offered are usually common ones...

Edit: Might I add for the 240Z that I've put the RB26DETT in one of mine, just as an example.



Is this in Forza 2 still? In F3 you can swap the 7M, 1JZ or 2JZ into the MKIII (I believe it comes stock with the 1GGTE?) But you CAN swap the 1JZ in for sure... I know because I've got a MKIII w/ 1JZ in my game of Forza.



I agree about the driveshaft thing....



You CANNOT use Forza 2 as a comparison for when there is Forza 3 out - Forza 3 is SOOOO far out of Forza 2's league that you would have to be stupid to use F2 as a comparison to GT5 instead of F3.

Would be like using GT3 as a comparison to Forza 3....



This is one of the things I've noticed people talking about in GT5. Almost all of the car suspension/etc. settings I see are posted as numbers between 1 and 10... How is that at all realistic? F3 actually uses the correct units. For example the spring rates in F3 are actually given as kg/mm or lbs/ft and also have realistic ranges. I don't see how you can precisely tune your car when you only have 10 points of adjustment...

Another example would be the transmission - fully adjustable gear ratio's and final drive ratio on F3, and as far as I can tell only one adjustment on GT5 which is how high you want your top speed.

And they call GT5 a simluator?
Haven't played the GT series I guess? Only settings that aren't in real units are dampers and anti-roll bars. Neither of which have real units anyways. (Sure anti-roll bars have a diameter that is roughly an indication of stiffness, but hollow or not and leverage affects this so a representation of relative stiffness is better for tuning.)

As for the transmission, I'm puzzled as this is the first GT game to do this. The early ones GT and GT2 had the best gearing adjustment system. They overlayed the gear ranges/rpm drops graphically over a power/torque curve so you could perfectly tune the ratios to your engine. Now you can't even change your final drive. WTF???
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Old 12-18-2010, 11:27 PM   #89
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As I said in the edit at the end of my post lol, I used to religiously play the GT series, because they WERE the best series out... Until GT5. I will admit I have only played GT5 briefly, and was extremely disappointed with it....

I know the settings used real units in all of the first 4 GT's, but I saw Ichi (I think?) post his FT86 settings in one of the threads around here and most of them were just a number between 1 and 10? I could be wrong about this, and I apologize if I am, because it means I'm misinformed and probably shouldn't be talking about the subject
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Old 12-18-2010, 11:31 PM   #90
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Forza is better than GT5..... Where GT5 lacks is that it's EXTREMELY inconsistant. Some parts of the game are VERY good (eg. premium cars, physics, etc.), while other are FAR below par for where they should be for a 'next-gen' game (eg. sounds, standard cars).

I can think of something to compare this to... Imagine a game of golf, Tiger Woods playing - imagine if he was to get 6 hole-in-ones over an 18 hole course. Good right? What if on each of the other 12 holes he was 3 shots over par? If that happened we never would have even known his name, and he for sure would not be called one of the best golfers in the world.



They don't, but they can make an educated guess using physics, Centre's of Gravity, Weight (and distribution), Torque and horsepower outputs of the swapped engine, etc. to get a pretty good idea of what a swapped car will handle like.

Did GT5 go out and test every car they have in game? Doubt it.
How do you know they didn't do the same thing with Forza?



You can't swap any engine into any car.... they have only done common/realistic swaps. For example - one of the UZ series engines into the Supra.

Educated "Guess"? That's your answer....LoL...ok man. Go play Forza then with the educated guess of a physics engine.

And YES GT5 does Test cars. Kaz competes in real life motorsports.

http://www.gtplanet.net/kazunori-yam...burgring-race/

Go compare the Nurburgring in GT5 (or any previous GT series) to that of Forza's version of the Nurburgring.....Not even close bro. But hey listen this isn't a Forza vs GT thread, so if you want to do a Pro and Con then we can make a new thread.

With that said...New PICS!




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Old 12-18-2010, 11:37 PM   #91
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Also GT5 doesn't allow the same degree of customization on the transmission as they used to. (ie I can't adjust my final drive, or specific gear ratios like I could in the earlier games.)

I imagine that will change as mentioned, it was in earlier GT's.
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Old 12-18-2010, 11:41 PM   #92
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GT5 = FT-86C and GSport

Forza = No FT-86

End debate...lol.

PS...Forza doesn't even include rare/concept cars?


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This is one of the things I've noticed people talking about in GT5. Almost all of the car suspension/etc. settings I see are posted as numbers between 1 and 10... How is that at all realistic? F3 actually uses the correct units. For example the spring rates in F3 are actually given as kg/mm or lbs/ft and also have realistic ranges. I don't see how you can precisely tune your car when you only have 10 points of adjustment...

Another example would be the transmission - fully adjustable gear ratio's and final drive ratio on F3, and as far as I can tell only one adjustment on GT5 which is how high you want your top speed.

And they call GT5 a simluator?

Edit: I just want to add that I'm not a Forza fanboy, at all - Up until GT4 I thought the GT series was the best racing sim available... When F3 came out it topped GT4 and from then I've never though GT5 was consistently good enough to beat F3.

All that you listed just now, was in GT5P, and it's only a matter of a DL that it will be added to GT5.

Is GT5 100% completed...No. So, if GT5 competes and exceeds Forza 3 in areas, imagine what a 100% completed GT5 will do.

Ok, sorry...back on topic now.
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Old 12-18-2010, 11:49 PM   #93
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And YES GT5 does Test cars. Kaz competes in real life motorsports.
And I'm sure Forza also has drivers testing cars in real life and then on the game too....
I was just saying that there is no way GT5 tested EVERY car in the game, like you seemed to be implying in your last post they did.

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Go compare the Nurburgring in GT5 (or any previous GT series) to that of Forza's version of the Nurburgring.....Not even close bro.
How do you know which is right (or at least closest?) when you've probably never been to the Nurburgring?

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But hey listen this isn't a Forza vs GT thread, so if you want to do a Pro and Con then we can make a new thread.
Fair enough, I'll try and make this my last post If it's not, then hey, at least it's keeping the forum alive while we wait for more FT86 info

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I imagine that will change as mentioned, it was in earlier GT's.
The point I'm trying to make is that is shouldn't HAVE to be changed... If the game is unfinished, don't release it. Was Forza 3 released unfinished? Not a single part of it AFAIK. Was Forza 3 released on time, and still manages to keep up with GT5 although GT5 had far more time to be produced? Yes, it was, and does.

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GT5 = FT-86C and GSport

Forza = No FT-86

End debate...lol.

PS...Forza doesn't even include rare/concept cars?
Who's contradicting themselves now? Saying that GT5 tests it's cars, yet it includes concept car's that haven't even been tested by anyone other than the Manufacturer?

And Forza does include rare cars... Some examples are the Tuned Japanese cars like the Mine's Skylines, Top Secret Supra's, Nur' Spec Skyline, etc. and I'm sure there are more, just can't think of them off the top of my head.

Edit: There's always a chance it's going to be added by DLC (not free)... And that should be considered an add-on, not an unfinshed part of the game, just in case you try and come back with that argument.

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All that you listed just now, was in GT5P, and it's only a matter of a DL that it will be added to GT5.

Is GT5 100% completed...No. So, if GT5 competes and exceeds Forza 3 in areas, imagine what a 100% completed GT5 will do.
Back to my previous point... Why did they take so long to make a game that is so far from being finished, and why did they release it in that state?

EVERY person I know with GT5 has been dissapointed with it in many ways.
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Old 12-19-2010, 12:10 AM   #94
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I'm not sure about those two... I can't say I've spent much time with engine conversions, I just know in general that the conversions offered are usually common ones...

Edit: Might I add for the 240Z that I've put the RB26DETT in one of mine, just as an example.
What? Can't put VH45DETT in 240z? Microsft, you lost a customer
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Old 12-19-2010, 12:24 AM   #95
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Disappointed in many ways? I can say there are some nits that I pick at, but it's really only because they are contrasted with how good everything else is. (Another nit-pick in GT5: interior view steering is fail. Compare how many turns the wheel takes lock to lock with Midnight Club LA...)

But I seriously had to lend it to a friend cause I was playing too much...

I have a 360 and a PS3. I bought Forza 2 as an in-between while waiting for GT5. But after a bit of play, I found myself playing GT4 on the PS2 more. The Forza 2 vs GT4 shouldn't be a fair comparison as we are talking about two different system generations. But I still feel the physics in GT4 are better than Forza 2.

And they took 3 freakin' games to put a 1JZ in a Supra?

Part of the delays and the 'incomplete' nature of the game is a testament to kaizen, how they will continue towards perfection. They are testing real cars to get them as close as possible. And as they continue to test they will continue to improve GT5.

And that is freakin' awesome.

Back to photo stuff...

Nice tandem drift shots, Dragon. You gotta try what you mentioned earlier, drifting towards each other. Would make some awesome pics.
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Old 12-19-2010, 12:26 AM   #96
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And I'm sure Forza also has drivers testing cars in real life and then on the game too....
I was just saying that there is no way GT5 tested EVERY car in the game, like you seemed to be implying in your last post they did.
If Turn10 sent drivers to test tracks, then the tracks would be closer to real thing than they are.



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How do you know which is right (or at least closest?) when you've probably never been to the Nurburgring?
How do I know which is right? BHAHAHAHAHA! It's apparent you haven't seen any of the videos comparing GT games to the real life counter parts.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=newX-mvGlm8


Forza is NOTHING like that in realism man.



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The point I'm trying to make is that is shouldn't HAVE to be changed... If the game is unfinished, don't release it. Was Forza 3 released unfinished? Not a single part of it AFAIK. Was Forza 3 released on time, and still manages to keep up with GT5 although GT5 had far more time to be produced? Yes, it was, and does.

Sorry, I'm not a "don't release it yet then" person. I am a "I want to play NOW. Send me the crap when you get it" person. And I enjoy playing now. If they waited more, the complaint would be...."It's taking to long"...so, there is no win-win situation with that.

Forza3 is like 9GB DVD layer or something like that.

GT5 is Dual Layer Blue Ray...it installs like 8GB onto the HDD alone. It's about 3 times larger than FM3 in content. It runs in 1080P with 60frps.



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Who's contradicting themselves now? Saying that GT5 tests it's cars, yet it includes concept car's that haven't even been tested by anyone other than the Manufacturer?
They work closely with Manufactures I'm pretty sure about that. They also visit SEMA and hand awards to custom car builders to which they then model those cars and include them in the game (i.e. HighEnd's G37).



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And Forza does include rare cars... Some examples are the Tuned Japanese cars like the Mine's Skylines, Top Secret Supra's, Nur' Spec Skyline, etc. and I'm sure there are more, just can't think of them off the top of my head.
Those are not rare cars. When I say rare, I'm talking Miura Lamborghini rare.


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Edit: There's always a chance it's going to be added by DLC (not free)... And that should be considered an add-on, not an unfinshed part of the game, just in case you try and come back with that argument.
And if that were the case, I would gladly pay for it. But it's a high probability it will be free. People pay for online play on the XBox Live yearly, lets not get into paying for things...lol.



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Back to my previous point... Why did they take so long to make a game that is so far from being finished, and why did they release it in that state?

EVERY person I know with GT5 has been dissapointed with it in many ways.
Again, read the specs. 500k polygons in GT5. FM3 is like 170k and then it drops to like 40k during gameplay.

Count me as a person Not disappointed.
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Old 12-19-2010, 01:28 AM   #97
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http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=31bH2t2X95g

Read his video description.


Simple little things such as accuracy in car detailing is what I love about GT, let alone their attention to detail when it comes to tracks.

Exhibit A: HKS Evo. Notice the rear bumper of a comparison video. @ :59sec pause the video and take a look at the rear bumper of the HKS Evo on the Forza3 side. Then @ 1:10 pause it and see the rear on the GT5 side.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Rkz46...eature=related

Now the real HKS Evo:


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Old 12-19-2010, 03:21 AM   #98
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LOL I thought Forza vs GT gonna go some other thread.

Anyways, Dragon, nice pics. 2nd race, I couldn't get close to you as I wanted. Maybe next time
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Old 12-19-2010, 04:40 AM   #99
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LOL I thought Forza vs GT gonna go some other thread.

Anyways, Dragon, nice pics. 2nd race, I couldn't get close to you as I wanted. Maybe next time
You guys gotta do that head-on drift you were talking about and post the pics dammit!
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Old 12-19-2010, 04:49 AM   #100
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Edit: I've started a new thread for this discussion, to stop clogging this one up:

http://www.ft86club.com/forums/showt...3541#post23541
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Old 12-19-2010, 07:41 AM   #101
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You guys gotta do that head-on drift you were talking about and post the pics dammit!
Didn't today. Hopefully next week
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Old 12-19-2010, 01:19 PM   #102
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Sorry Ich, was only able to get on long enough to grab pics from the Drift practice. Next time for sure we will get a head on drift. Wonder how many tries we can get it in without crashing into each other...lol. I want to make it as close as possible.

If only I can get the vid ported over to Windows Movie Maker then I can edit it up for some cool drift footage.
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