Interest in a Racecomp BRZ/FRS "Performance Pack" to match Mustang V6???

[Racecomp Engineering]

Waaaay back in the day (circa 2004) we had a "Starter kit" package for the then brand spanking new Impreza STI. Just a few things that a new owner could put on their car on day 2 and be pumped to have a few tasteful mild mods on their car.

After watching the BRZ vs. Ford Mustang V6 "Performance Pack" review it got me thinking about that again. Ford had a great idea and the guts to be able to offer something like that and give their car a major edge when it comes to performance at the track. A few key mods can help make the car more enjoyable and more capable without a huge price tag. It also made them a target!

What we want is to offer something that levels the playing field between the BRZ and the Mustang V6 "Performance Pack." Down on power, but also down on weight with a fantastic chassis means the BRZ may come out ahead with a short list of modifications that unlock the potential of the car.

Here's what I'm thinking (and I'm open to feedback too!):

RCE Springs - reduce roll, pitch, and dive. improve response and overall grip of the car throughout the corner.
RCE Swaybars - further reduce roll and allow the user to easily fine tune the balance of the car. Either RCE, Whiteline, or a third inexpensive option
OEM subaru camber bolts - add the ability to adjust camber up front safely, allowing an improvement in front grip.

Possibly include a roll center kit and/or a few bushings. Our RCE Lowering Camber plates? Brake pads? It would be great to bolt on another 50 hp....but that ain't happening.

What do you guys think?

So nothing too crazy, but a good starting package that steps up the BRZ's game and gives the Mustang something to think about. Would it be faster? I don't know just yet but with similar compound tires it should be very close and I'd love to find out.

Ultimately though it would just be a good starting package to improve the looks and handling of the car for those who want just a little more than stock. For those looking for something a little more hardcore, we will have options for that too.




Note: the Ford package replaces stock equipment so price comparisons aren't exactly fair but we should come in WELL under the Ford price which replaces the OEM wheels/tires with special wheels and summer rubber. We don't want to include wheels + tires in our package because we know everyone has different tastes, plus some of you probably already have your wheels in your garage ready to go. So we can keep the price lower and let the user decide on wheels/tires themselves.




- Andrew

[pithy_logorrhea]

I'm assuming the pack will be less money than if you bought everything individually? I'd be interested in something like that. Especially if its all STX legal (or wherever it gets classed).

[Racecomp Engineering]

Originally Posted by pithy_logorrhea

I'm assuming the pack will be less money than if you bought everything individually? I'd be interested in something like that. Especially if its all STX legal (or wherever it gets classed).

Yes, definitely.

- andrew

[DarkSunrise]

How much would your springs lower the car? Are you thinking about releasing a "black" option with minimal drop (5-10 mm) but higher spring rates?

(Would also eliminate the need for a roll center kit.)

[Calum]

sounds good to me.

[7thgear]

buying a set of high performance street tires, or better yet a few R-Comps will destroy any sort of performance gains your "starter" kit will offer.

your parts will ding this car up a class in autocross

saying that springs alone will increase GRIP is a statement full of misinformation, and you should know better. Stiffer springs will most certainly reduce mechanical grip, lowring the car anymore than it already is will have an impact on front end geometry, and the lack of tuned dampers will mean more problems just a few KM away.

you say to add more swaybars to reduce roll, how much more roll reduction do you really think this car needs for the average user? (see sig)

i understand your job is to sell go-fast parts, but you should really approach it from the right angle.

it's very easy to jump on the springs and swaybar band wagon because that's what on every other page of every tuner mag out there, but you're only helping to dilute the pathetic state the tuner industry is in, and by that i mean general education of car tuning theory.

you gotta pay the bills, so whatever.
but don't call something a "performance pack" that packs very little performance.

[Racecomp Engineering]

Originally Posted by DarkSunrise

How much would your springs lower the car? Are you thinking about releasing a "black" option with minimal drop (5-10 mm) but higher spring rates?

(Would also eliminate the need for a roll center kit.)

I'm getting ready to post a thread on our upcoming springs, including the shock dyno data, suspension travel numbers, and of course spring rates and total drop numbers.

Yes we would be open to a "black" mild drop option of 5-10 mm if the interest is there.

- Andrew

[Racecomp Engineering]

Originally Posted by 7thgear

buying a set of high performance street tires, or better yet a few R-Comps will destroy any sort of performance gains your "starter" kit will offer.

your parts will ding this car up a class in autocross

saying that springs alone will increase GRIP is a statement full of misinformation, and you should know better. Stiffer springs will most certainly reduce mechanical grip, lowring the car anymore than it already is will have an impact on front end geometry, and the lack of tuned dampers will mean more problems just a few KM away.

you say to add more swaybars to reduce roll, how much more roll reduction do you really think this car needs for the average user? (see sig)

i understand your job is to sell go-fast parts, but you should really approach it from the right angle.

it's very easy to jump on the springs and swaybar band wagon because that's what on every other page of every tuner mag out there, but you're only helping to dilute the pathetic state the tuner industry is in, and by that i mean general education of car tuning theory.

but you gotta pay the bills, so whatever.

Relax. Yes, obviously this will bump the car up an auto-x class and yes the right tires will make a huge difference. However, adding stickier tires (as many people will do) will make the car roll more....which is where firmer springs and swaybars will help.

If you missed it, we've posted the shock dynos of the OEM dampers and there is certainly room to increase spring rates safely with the system critically damped. I'd be glad to hear your insights on the OEM shock dyno if you have any.

Our springs will not lower the car very much, and the increase in spring rate will more than make up for the lowered front roll center. Also, as I mentioned, we are looking at a front roll center kit to completely take care of that.

Anyway, reducing roll can help improve overall grip and tuning the balance of the car (to reduce the understeer in the BRZ for example) can do the same. Yes too much roll stiffness can reduce grip, but we're not even close to being in that ballpark. With sticky tires especially many will benefit from more roll stiffness and that's what I'd recommend if you want to "beat" a track pack stang v6.

EDIT: your car in your sig for example would see a pretty big improvement from a little more roll stiffness.

- andrew

[Racecomp Engineering]

As for our effect on the tuning industry....we're happy to be very different and do our best to educate people. For example, not many other companies have released a spring for Impreza (or any other car ever) that lower the car 5mm....with included shortened bumps for MORE overall travel than stock with firmer rates. But we knew it works well so we made it an option. We don't do things simply because they'll be popular.

No bandwagon here...springs, swaybars, coilovers, etc. are what we do and what we know.

- Andrew

[7thgear]

what is it with companies promoting ultimate roll stiffness

a flat car only benefits from being flat if you've got aero or super wide tires to take advantage of it.

a 205 or 225 @ 50 aspect can handle quite a bit of roll and while maintaining a good contact patch with the road.

no i don't have my own damper dyno, i'm not an engineer, i'm a driver.

but regardless you can't deny that by increasing one thing you are introducing negative aspects that will then need to be corrected by purchasing MOAR upgrades.

EDIT: I'm willing to bet that a car on OEM tires with springs, swaybars and all sorts of alignment will be at least 2 seconds slower on a 60 second track than a stock car on a Hoosier A6 or V710

roll means nothing if the car sticks to the road

[Dark_Angle]

Might I mention that the cars that i test drove in the scion first drive had been lowered 1.5"'s with trd springs. I must say that this coupled with 18in enkies and summer tires (I think yokahama) made this first impression test drive bad ass. Very little body roll you could almost keep the pedal down during the entire course.

So the springs would be a good idea. If the sway bar was to be included, I would suggest a rear swaybar. This is because as I watch the other cars run I did see some roll but it was in the rear. The front seemed to stay well planted.

[Dark_Angle]

The ultimate goal is to keep as much footprint in contact with the course as possible. Just because the tires are wide doesn't mean anything unless they are keeping contact with the road. So a stiffer sidewall is needed to obtain this. Camber is also a good cheap mod that will help in cornering situations.

[7thgear]

a tire doesn't have to be at 90* to the road in order for the contact patch to be flat

[blu_]

Originally Posted by 7thgear

EDIT: I'm willing to bet that a car on OEM tires with springs, swaybars and all sorts of alignment will be at least 2 seconds slower on a 60 second track than a stock car on a Hoosier A6 or V710

roll means nothing if the car sticks to the road

This is a mute point at best. RCE doesn't make tires. For your bashing to be anything more than trolling, you would need to "forum bet"/show that their suspension "upgrades" would offer no benefit over stock on a track

[Racecomp Engineering]

Originally Posted by 7thgear

what is it with companies promoting ultimate roll stiffness

a flat car only benefits from being flat if you've got aero or super wide tires to take advantage of it.

a 205 or 225 @ 50 aspect can handle quite a bit of roll and while maintaining a good contact patch with the road.

no i don't have my own damper dyno, i'm not an engineer, i'm a driver.

but regardless you can't deny that by increasing one thing you are introducing negative aspects that will then need to be corrected by purchasing MOAR upgrades.

EDIT: I'm willing to bet that a car on OEM tires with springs, swaybars and all sorts of alignment will be at least 2 seconds slower on a 60 second track than a stock car on a Hoosier A6 or V710

roll means nothing if the car sticks to the road

We're not talking about 14k rates here on the OEM tires. That would indeed suck. I've seen many cars lose out on total grip via running spring rates way too high and overloading their tires (similar to soft springs way too low so they're riding the bumpstops). But to be clear I've advocated stickier tires if a big gain in grip is what you're looking for. IMO that should be coupled with suspension changes as well or the car is going to chew through tires, feel very sloppy, and ultimately be slower than one with a proper suspension and the same sticky tires.

In your scenario the car with hoosiers would definitely be faster. But a car with hoosiers + springs and swaybars would be much faster and that's my point.

We posted the shock dyno on our FB page and someone reposted it here.

We are all about balanced upgrades that look at the complete system and not just throwing on parts for fun. That includes tires. We do our homework.

- drew

[7thgear]

Originally Posted by blu_

This is a mute point at best. RCE doesn't make tires. For your bashing to be anything more than trolling, you would need to "forum bet"/show that their suspension "upgrades" would offer no benefit over stock on a track

Let's keep in mind that the "track pack" mustang has Pirelli PZero's on it as part of the package.. which accounts for 90% of the car's increased ability.

[7thgear]

Originally Posted by Racecomp Engineering

We are all about balanced upgrades that look at the complete system and not just throwing on parts for fun. That includes tires. We do our homework.

- drew

I just want to say that i am not disagreeing with your knowledge and general intent, you are one of the good guys

but the first post in this thread made me twitch a little

[Racecomp Engineering]

Originally Posted by 7thgear

Let's keep in mind that the "track pack" mustang has Pirelli PZero's on it as part of the package.. which accounts for 90% of the car's increased ability.

I know that....did you see the note at the end of my first post? We'd love to include Z1 star specs or similar with the kit but realistically that's not something we can do. Many people have their own tastes in wheels/tires and we don't want to decide that for them, so we'll do the rest of the kit and let everyone pick their own wheels/tires.

Originally Posted by Racecomp Engineering (post#1)

Would it be faster? I don't know just yet but with similar compound tires it should be very close and I'd love to find out.

Seeeeeee?

- drew

[ESBjiujitsu]

sounds like exactly what i would be looking for so long as the drop was enough, but im sure you guys would probably offer springs with different rates and drops so im all in!!!

[Droopy]

I would be inerested in this pack, if the cost is right and like what dark angle said

If the sway bar was to be included, I would suggest a rear swaybar. This is because as I watch the other cars run I did see some roll but it was in the rear. The front seemed to stay well planted.

[Calum]

nothing to see here

[Calum]

Originally Posted by Racecomp Engineering

Yes we would be open to a "black" mild drop option of 5-10 mm if the interest is there.

- Andrew

I'm presently running pink springs on my 08, 25% increase over the WRX springs and a 10 mm drop. For a Daily driver they're great, the drop is barely noticeable, but the extra stiffness in really nice and it actually feels easier to drive at the limit.