How much would a new Supra cost ?

[MtnDrvr86]

Originally Posted by Dimman

Quote is from Automobile Dec/09. Quote within the quote is the same guy as in yours: Haruhiko Tanahashi. This is pretty hard to mis-interpret:

"Chief engineer Haruhiko Tanahashi remembers why: 'We knew we had to challenge the best in terms of performance, handling, and roadholding. But under the Lexus brand, we also needed to emphasize refinement, comfort, and style. Since these elements are not exactly weight-neutral, the whole approach had to be reconsidered at a point in time when the project was already two-thirds down the road.'"

I dont take that as it changing hands from Toyota to Lexus, I take it more as them having to reconsider how to add and "emphasize refinement, comfort and style." Just as it says in the quote, but I guess it could be interpretted that way, depending on the context of the whole article.

[Dimman]

Originally Posted by MtnDrvr86

I dont take that as it changing hands from Toyota to Lexus, I take it more as them having to reconsider how to add and "emphasize refinement, comfort and style." Just as it says in the quote, but I guess it could be interpretted that way, depending on the context of the whole article.

There's more a few posts up. I can't see a company like Toyota realizing 2/3 of the way through a project that they almost forgot it was going to be a Lexus and having to add in all the Lexus stuff. This is stuff that gets done in the beginning.

[bigbcraig]

Originally Posted by MatadorRacing_F1

**sigh**

Where to start? Why should you hate a car just because you will probably never get to drive or own it? Just because you can't have at it, does not mean that no one will. That does not take away from how great a car it is.

You own a Supra, and you are here, which would lead me to hypothesize that you are a Toyota fan. If anything else, you should be glad the LFA exists. Why? The lessons learnt and the tooling invested in the development and production of the LFA WILL make it's way down through the rest of Lexus/Toyota's lineup, especially when they get the sports cars rolling again.

It is a FACT that the LFA was always supposed to be a Lexus. Yes, it did begin as an Aluminum chassis car, and yes, at one point, it was powered by a modded V8, however, it was never supposed to be a Toyota (contrary to what I thought previously) and the V8 was never intended for the production model.

I do understand your frustration, but the way you deal with it doesn't really make me hold your opinion in very high regard. Because of the LFA, Toyota now knows how to produce a car that has incredible balance and road feel apart from just being able to handle really well. The 500 people that buy the LFA bought the tooling for Toyota to be able to mass produce carbon fiber at a reasonable price, in a production method that allows it to be laid in a faster time frame, and be able to be used in strategic places in the chassis for better weight distribution and cost/weight ratio.

Of course I'd love to have a $70k Supra successor now, but guess what? I think because of the LFA, when that car does come, it will be better directly because of it. I'm happy to drive the FT-86 meanwhile. Your assumption however, that the LFA was supposed to be that car is WRONG.

*Removed last paragraph because, while true, it's a different discussion*

Abso-freaking-loutely! You shouldn't be hating on a car just because you won't ever own one. Just as, for instance, no Subaru enthusiasts in their right mind would dislike Subaru's WRC team, just because the didn't get to drive the rally cars - it led to better and better WRXs.

There's a good idea to learn - for progress to go at it's fastest, there has to be expensive, highly technical projects taken on. That way, in layman's terms, really cool stuff gets R&D'd so that it can be implemented in more accessible applications in the future.

This is why some of the most successful and highly-performing automotive companies invest heavily in high-tech racing programs and build extravagant supercars. It's an investment in the future.

In short, there will always be a few people who are willing to spend a lot to have the newest and greatest, and this allows for the advancement of new/expensive/advanced technologies, paving (and paying) the path for the new technology to trickle down to the rest of the consumers.

This is why it's pretty common for hypercars to be sold 'at no profit' - it really does cost that much to develop the newest, best stuff - even if it seems like it's not that revolutionary.

--------------

Dimman - The other thing to understand about these hypercars is how well they do EVERYTHING. Sure, your Supra can out-drag a freaking Saturn V rocket, who cares? These cars perform damn near the top cars of single fields, for instance your example of drag racing, in every field, with enough luxury to satisfy someone who can afford the big check and that person's wife. And they don't need a rebuilt every 50 hours. So, remember in the back of your head, whenever you say the LFA is too slow in a straight time or the Veyron is too heavy to handle well, that they really are so much better in every way to accessible cars, that a fair comparison isn't possible.

Feel free to love your Supras, thats perfectly fine, and they are capable of some pretty impressive power - nobody's disputing that - but there's no good reason to bash other cars over and over again.

P.S. You really shouldn't've mentioned the LFA's weight... unlike making power, not one of your favorite car's strong suits

-----

Well, I haven't avoided ranting a little, hopefully I kept it short enough for some people to read.

[Dimman]

Originally Posted by bigbcraig

*Removed last paragraph because, while true, it's a different discussion*

Abso-freaking-loutely! You shouldn't be hating on a car just because you won't ever own one. Just as, for instance, no Subaru enthusiasts in their right mind would dislike Subaru's WRC team, just because the didn't get to drive the rally cars - it led to better and better WRXs.

There's a good idea to learn - for progress to go at it's fastest, there has to be expensive, highly technical projects taken on. That way, in layman's terms, really cool stuff gets R&D'd so that it can be implemented in more accessible applications in the future.

This is why some of the most successful and highly-performing automotive companies invest heavily in high-tech racing programs and build extravagant supercars. It's an investment in the future.

In short, there will always be a few people who are willing to spend a lot to have the newest and greatest, and this allows for the advancement of new/expensive/advanced technologies, paving (and paying) the path for the new technology to trickle down to the rest of the consumers.

This is why it's pretty common for hypercars to be sold 'at no profit' - it really does cost that much to develop the newest, best stuff - even if it seems like it's not that revolutionary.

--------------

Dimman - The other thing to understand about these hypercars is how well they do EVERYTHING. Sure, your Supra can out-drag a freaking Saturn V rocket, who cares? These cars perform damn near the top cars of single fields, for instance your example of drag racing, in every field, with enough luxury to satisfy someone who can afford the big check and that person's wife. And they don't need a rebuilt every 50 hours. So, remember in the back of your head, whenever you say the LFA is too slow in a straight time or the Veyron is too heavy to handle well, that they really are so much better in every way to accessible cars, that a fair comparison isn't possible.

Feel free to love your Supras, thats perfectly fine, and they are capable of some pretty impressive power - nobody's disputing that - but there's no good reason to bash other cars over and over again.

P.S. You really shouldn't've mentioned the LFA's weight... unlike making power, not one of your favorite car's strong suits

-----

Well, I haven't avoided ranting a little, hopefully I kept it short enough for some people to read.

First, there is nothing earth-shatteringly new developed with this car. McLaren paved the way 15 years ago for the carbon tub. Ferrari with the automated manuals. Honda with ridiculous redline car motors. Granted maybe this fancy loom for weaving the CF might be the ticket, but Toyota's been in that game for over 100 years (weaving, not composites).

Second people are having difficulty with what I thought came across as passionate disappointment and interpret it as hate. Not so. I had super-high expectations for the LFA and don't feel they were met. Failure on my point.

(I'm a bit bitter at what I perceive as Lexus taking what would have been a sub-$80K Supra replacement and turning it into a 599 competitor.)

Third, the Supra weight thing... sheesh... You may think that's a humorous low-blow, but the reality just makes the LFA's weight even worse by contrast. I've always gone with the 1570kg curb weight for a 7MGTE 5 speed non-targa car (Mk3). I've seen this as low as 1540kg depending on your source. Keep in mind that this is for an all-steel car with a huge iron-block straight six designed 23 years ago (older than a lot of people on this board). For those of you that are conversion challenged, thats between 3388lbs and 3454lbs. This is not a super heavy pig of a car (though it may feel like that trying to turn with all that iron over the front). My car is a JDM narrow-body, targa topped, 1JZGTE 5 speed car with some pretty extensive weight reduction. I haven't put it on the scales but I would bet $50 that it's within 50 lbs of an LFA. Probably on the lighter side. But very extensive weight reduction.

Now in the LFA's defense, people haven't really gotten into the rigidity of that car. So it may only be within 125-191 lbs of its grampa, but its structural rigidity is probably many, many, magnitudes better. I don't know the whole effect this has, but compared to driving my car with the targa off and with it on, that's a whole different world when it comes to feel. Theory says it makes the suspension more precise, too.

My car is not a do-everything car but my goal is something that will run with a GTR in a straight line (without spray or crazy anti-lag launch) and on a road course. As well as being completely streetable. With only 2.5L of 20 year old tech to work with I've got my work cut out for me. However because it can't do everything, I have 2 cars. I would think that if you could afford an LFA to go fast in you could also afford an LS600h for when you wanted creature-comforts, no? (this is a joke people...)

Ranting is what the internet is for.

[vh_supra26]

To bad this bad boy never made it pass concept.

[vh_supra26]

Originally Posted by Dimman

Headlights can make or break a car's 'face'. I always see them as 'eyes'. That was my only gripe with the Mk4 Supra, it looked 'sad' or 'empty' and with the grille vaguely catfish-like. Compare it to the lights of the production LFA which looks 'angry'. I would rather my performance car look pissed off than depressed.

Another tangent: The concept's rear shows some crazy aero ideas. Full tunnels, and fans to blow out more of the rear's low pressure. Sick.

The 97 & 98 headlights looks better. Or you can buy the "eye lid" and paint it to match your car.

Originally Posted by Dimman

I believe the source of my frustration is that it didn't have to be a Lexus.

Well I don't think anyone is gonna pay $375k for a Toyota.

[ichitaka05]

Well I get your point bout how disappointment you are w LFA & pretty much no one can change that (unless you drove it).

...just one question bout the heavy LFA vs your JDM Supra. Can you add:
1. SRS Airbag
*Driver & Passenger's dual stage airbag
*Driver seat knee airbag
*Driver & Passenger's seat belt airbag
2. Restrain System
*3 point ELR & ALR
3. VDIM
4. VSC
5. TRAC/TRC
...and can you still state that your Supra weight still lighter than LFA? Cuz I think stock Lexus LFA weight vs adding all those safety in your light weight Supra, I think LFA weight lighter than your Supra. They state that LFA weight 1480~1580kg (3263~3484 lbs)... if they take off other junks and not doing any extensive diet (just light diet), I'm betting that LFA weight less than my car (2699.2 lbs). Cuz, I don't wanna get in your car and do same speed as LFA taking the corner and get into wreck. I'm damn sure that I wanna be in heavy weight stock LFA and get into the wreck than your "extensive" diet Supra.


Edit:

Originally Posted by vh_supra26

Well I don't think anyone is gonna pay $375k for a Toyota.

If I was rich enough, I totally would! & I'll damn make sure to make it into my way. LOL

[Matador]

Originally Posted by ichitaka05

Well I get your point bout how disappointment you are w LFA & pretty much no one can change that (unless you drove it).

...just one question bout the heavy LFA vs your JDM Supra. Can you add:
1. SRS Airbag
*Driver & Passenger's dual stage airbag
*Driver seat knee airbag
*Driver & Passenger's seat belt airbag
2. Restrain System
*3 point ELR & ALR
3. VDIM
4. VSC
5. TRAC/TRC
...and can you still state that your Supra weight still lighter than LFA? Cuz I think stock Lexus LFA weight vs adding all those safety in your light weight Supra, I think LFA weight lighter than your Supra. They state that LFA weight 1480~1580kg (3263~3484 lbs)... if they take off other junks and not doing any extensive diet (just light diet), I'm betting that LFA weight less than my car (2699.2 lbs). Cuz, I don't wanna get in your car and do same speed as LFA taking the corner and get into wreck. I'm damn sure that I wanna be in heavy weight stock LFA and get into the wreck than your "extensive" diet Supra.


Edit:


If I was rich enough, I totally would! & I'll damn make sure to make it into my way. LOL

Don't forget the 8-way power seats and 12+ speaker stereo.

[Dimman]

Originally Posted by ichitaka05

Well I get your point bout how disappointment you are w LFA & pretty much no one can change that (unless you drove it).

...just one question bout the heavy LFA vs your JDM Supra. Can you add:
1. SRS Airbag
*Driver & Passenger's dual stage airbag
*Driver seat knee airbag
*Driver & Passenger's seat belt airbag
2. Restrain System
*3 point ELR & ALR
3. VDIM
4. VSC
5. TRAC/TRC
...and can you still state that your Supra weight still lighter than LFA? Cuz I think stock Lexus LFA weight vs adding all those safety in your light weight Supra, I think LFA weight lighter than your Supra. They state that LFA weight 1480~1580kg (3263~3484 lbs)... if they take off other junks and not doing any extensive diet (just light diet), I'm betting that LFA weight less than my car (2699.2 lbs). Cuz, I don't wanna get in your car and do same speed as LFA taking the corner and get into wreck. I'm damn sure that I wanna be in heavy weight stock LFA and get into the wreck than your "extensive" diet Supra.

Yes you are correct. That was part of the reason for the change from aluminum to carbon chassis, because they decided to add a lot more luxury and safety features they still needed to be reasonably light. If they had kept a more performance and less luxury design mandate the LFA could have been under 3000lbs easily, I believe.

As for safety, yes again. I would much rather be in the LFA in a crash. I haven't done anything to my car that will reduce safety, such as removing the bumper or door beams. But the entire back is stripped, heavy power seats were replaced with race buckets, 4 point harnesses and bar replaced all the seatbelt mechanisms. All the seat-related brackets in the back were removed, sound deadening chipped off, power-steering is gone, ABS (could be considered safety or performance depending) is gone, driveshaft is now aluminum, big steel hood is now carbon fiber, heavy cast wheels are now lightweight forged. It will be getting traction control in the future when I go standalone (adds no weight), and there is a rules-mandated cage coming, which takes back some of the benefits, but adds rigidity even if it means the targa never comes off after.

Caged Supra or stock LFA for safety? Still LFA, no-contest.

As for your Subaru, I don't understand how that company does it! My daily driver is a BD Legacy and it weighs about 3000 lbs. With AWD and an automatic transmission!

[Matador]

Originally Posted by vh_supra26

To bad this bad boy never made it pass concept.

pic

pic

Amen. This car is all kinds of awesome. That being said, the GRMN hybrid sports car concept (V6 hybrid MR-S) is an extension on this car. I do think we will soon see a production version (mid engined awd hybrid), although it probably wont look like this

[Dimman]

Originally Posted by MatadorRacing_F1

Don't forget the 8-way power seats and 12+ speaker stereo.

I think my Supra's driver seat was 8-way power too (don't know how they measure the 'ways' front-back, recline front-back, squeeze the sides in-out, push in the small of your back in-out?). Weighed about 70 lbs. Good-bye power, hello Recaro.

[Siriusly.Andrew]

they usually measure
1/2 - Forward / Backward
3/4 - recline and uncline? lol
5/6 - seat height up / down

then others would be
7/8 lumbar
9/10 headrest
11/12 --- I have no idea wtf else could even move in a seat? I guess the part that secures you in the seat if its a bucket seat??

[70NYD]

Originally Posted by Siriusly.Andrew

they usually measure
1/2 - Forward / Backward
3/4 - recline and uncline? lol
5/6 - seat height up / down

then others would be
7/8 lumbar
9/10 headrest
11/12 --- I have no idea wtf else could even move in a seat? I guess the part that secures you in the seat if its a bucket seat??

like side bolsters? (like bmw m5 that does it automatically when u go m?)

[ichitaka05]

Originally Posted by Dimman

Yes you are correct. That was part of the reason for the change from aluminum to carbon chassis, because they decided to add a lot more luxury and safety features they still needed to be reasonably light. If they had kept a more performance and less luxury design mandate the LFA could have been under 3000lbs easily, I believe.

I don't think those features are "Luxury". I think em as "Requirement" for those damn fast car. This car can take 1g later (same as GT-R) & if it loose the rear wheels that keep this thing on ground, it better has all the gizmo to keep me alive. If LFA didn't have any of those things, I would even think bout driving LFA.

[Dimman]

Originally Posted by ichitaka05

I don't think those features are "Luxury". I think em as "Requirement" for those damn fast car. This car can take 1g later (same as GT-R) & if it loose the rear wheels that keep this thing on ground, it better has all the gizmo to keep me alive. If LFA didn't have any of those things, I would even think bout driving LFA.

I think it was more about the extra luxury, stereo, these power seats, etc...

Carbon tub by itself is exceptionally safe. When the F1 and Indy cars are literally exploding into millions of pieces on brutal impacts, that is the CF taking all the energy of the crash and absorbing it before it gets to the driver.

Keeping in mind that the Supra was 'this' car (Toyota's flagship) in its day, I've seen a test of the Mk4 hit 1g lateral. I think Car and Driver hit .97 (off the top of my head, don't quote me) on their skidpad. Stock car, stock tires (with 16 year old compound), 235/45R17 front, 255/40R17 rear, 34xx lbs.

[ichitaka05]

Originally Posted by Dimman

Carbon tub by itself is exceptionally safe. When the F1 and Indy cars are literally exploding into millions of pieces on brutal impacts, that is the CF taking all the energy of the crash and absorbing it before it gets to the driver.

I'm pretty sure it's true... but I sure haven't see any F1 racer surviving for sure. Ayrton Senna would live to state that fact...

[Dimman]

Originally Posted by ichitaka05

I'm pretty sure it's true... but I sure haven't see any F1 racer surviving for sure. Ayrton Senna would live to state that fact...

I believe Senna was killed due to an improperly repaired or modified steering column, if I recall correctly (but I often don't). Look at current wrecks and look at survival rates. No car is death-proof, but understanding the carbon tub made them a whole lot more death-resistant. Compare Schumacher's crash in an impact absorbing carbon shell vs Earnhart's massive protective cage which doesn't absorb energy the same way. (Hans device too, but compare the level of the impacts.)

I wonder if all the airbags in the LFA will do is act as an indication of how much it will cost to repair or replace the car...

[ichitaka05]

Originally Posted by Dimman

I believe Senna was killed due to an improperly repaired or modified steering column, if I recall correctly (but I often don't). Look at current wrecks and look at survival rates. No car is death-proof, but understanding the carbon tub made them a whole lot more death-resistant. Compare Schumacher's crash in an impact absorbing carbon shell vs Earnhart's massive protective cage which doesn't absorb energy the same way. (Hans device too, but compare the level of the impacts.)

I wonder if all the airbags in the LFA will do is act as an indication of how much it will cost to repair or replace the car...

Senna's crash. No one knows. I don't remember reading final report on Senna's crash

As for LFA, you can't repair the crashed LFA, you need to get new one. I don't remember which article I read, but they stated something like "LFA is like a condom. If you screw it once, you can't screw it again w same one. Need to get new one"

[Dimman]

Originally Posted by ichitaka05

Senna's crash. No one knows. I don't remember reading final report on Senna's crash

As for LFA, you can't repair the crashed LFA, you need to get new one. I don't remember which article I read, but they stated something like "LFA is like a condom. If you screw it once, you can't screw it again w same one. Need to get new one"

Italian court tried to prosecute some Williams engineer (I think, or the whole team?) over it, don't really remember the whole thing.

That's kind of what I mean with the airbags. One pops off, and it's like "Ding! Ding! Ding! That'll be $375000 to fix, please. Oh wait, you can't, they're all sold out! Well at least your not hurt."

Carbon absorbs the energy when it breaks (i bet a LOT of people wished condoms worked that way, heheh). And yeah, not repairable.

[ichitaka05]

Originally Posted by Dimman

Italian court tried to prosecute some Williams engineer (I think, or the whole team?) over it, don't really remember the whole thing.

That's kind of what I mean with the airbags. One pops off, and it's like "Ding! Ding! Ding! That'll be $375000 to fix, please. Oh wait, you can't, they're all sold out! Well at least your not hurt."

Carbon absorbs the energy when it breaks (i bet a LOT of people wished condoms worked that way, heheh). And yeah, not repairable.

IIRC, people that who owns LFA will get the replacement for trading the wreck LFA. Of course, bout same price tag.

[Dimman]

Originally Posted by ichitaka05

IIRC, people that who owns LFA will get the replacement for trading the wreck LFA. Of course, bout same price tag.

As bitter as that car makes me, I still hope no-one wrecks one...

But if they do I wonder how the official numbering will be. New car is #332A 'cause buddy wrecked #332, or if he gets #501. And if they get the same tech to put the new engine together as did the first one. May be a nightmare for the concours judges of the future figuring out provenance and such...

[ichitaka05]

Originally Posted by Dimman

As bitter as that car makes me, I still hope no-one wrecks one...

But if they do I wonder how the official numbering will be. New car is #332A 'cause buddy wrecked #332, or if he gets #501. And if they get the same tech to put the new engine together as did the first one. May be a nightmare for the concours judges of the future figuring out provenance and such...

You know, I have no clue... My bet is adding letter next to it like your first example.