Lightest Brakes or BBK?

[Anthony]

This will be one of the later mods I do, but I'm so ignorant on the subject, I thought I'd go ahead and start researching now. I read somewhere on here where some guy was throwing together his own big brake kit from various components. Like one brand of rotor + a different brand caliper, and so on.

So I'm wondering what is the lightest possible combination, regardless of heat tolerance and stopping power. Not that those aspects aren't equally important as weight reduction, but I don't want to be overwhelmed with too many variables just yet. My plan is to learn what's light first, then amongst the lightest of components, research which parts are known to be poor performers and which are excellent performers.

I will start doing my own tracking down of weight numbers, but hopefully we can get some insight from experts, which I certainly am not. I'd like to make this thread as rich as my Lightest Exhaust, Headers, and Front/Over/Mid Pipes thread.

Unsprung weight, son!

Here are all the stock weights stolen from the Official Component Weights & Weight Reduction Thread:

Originally Posted by JRitt

OEM front Brake pads= 1.8 lbs.
OEM front brake dust shield and three bolts= 0.4 lbs.
OEM front brake disc= 17.0 lbs.
OEM front brake caliper bracket= 3.8 lbs.
OEM Front Brake Caliper= 7.8 lbs.

OEM Rear brake caliper= 2.8 lbs.
OEM rear brake caliper bracket= 3.0 lbs.
OEM Rear brake disc= 13.2 lbs.
OEM rear brake pads= 0.8 lbs.

Weights listed are per corner.

Complete BBK Kits

Front:
31.2lbs - OEM (Source)
21.0lbs - AP Sprint kit (Source)
16.7lbs - Wilwood BBK for WRX (Source)



Calipers

Front:
7.8lbs - OEM (Source)
7.4lbs - AP Racing Formula Big Brake Kit (Source)
5.4lbs - AP Racing CP8350 Essex "Sprint" and "Endurance" caliper (Caliper + bracket) (Source)
~5lbs - Ksport ProComp 8 Pot Front (Source)
~5lbs - Ksport ProComp 6 Pot Front (Source)
4.8lbs - AP Racing CP8350 Essex "Sprint" and "Endurance" caliper (Caliper only) (Source)

Rear:
5.4lbs - AP Racing CP8350 Essex "Sprint" and "Endurance" caliper (Caliper + bracket) (Source)
~5lbs - Ksport ProComp 4 Pot Rear (Source)
4.8lbs - AP Racing CP8350 Essex "Sprint" and "Endurance" caliper (Caliper only) (Source)
2.8lbs - OEM (Source)



Rotors

Front:
18.2lbs - AP Racing Formula Big Brake Kit (Source)
17.0lbs - OEM (Source)
12.2lbs - AP Racing CP3862 "Sprint" (ring + hat + hardware) (Source)
11.2lbs - AP Racing CP3862 "Sprint" (ring only) (Source)

Rear:
13.2lbs - OEM (Source)



Pads

Front:
1.8lbs - OEM (Source)

Rear:
0.8lbs - OEM (Source)

[Anthony]

Apparently OEM calipers weigh 7.8lbs, and the OEM front discs weigh ~17.2lbs. I got this info from this page: http://ft86speedfactory.com/ap-racin...e-kit-743.html

[ZionsWrath]

I think the consensus is if you are going to track your car a good amount a BBK will over time be more economical as well as providing the weight savings. I too am looking at brakes but until my commute is not 50 miles/day year round I don't want to get BBK and have it eaten by road salt

[Anthony]

Originally Posted by ZionsWrath

I think the consensus is if you are going to track your car a good amount a BBK will over time be more economical...

Yes, I've read this too, but it seems like you'd have to go through a LOT of pads... er... rather... would have gone through a lot of OEM-style pads before you'd come anywhere close to breaking even financially, considering a full BBK costs thousands of dollars. Your best chance of making yourself (or maybe the wife) feel better by saying "it was an economical decision" is to get one ASAP to cut down on the number of small pad purchases.

[ZionsWrath]

foreveralone...

[CSG Mike]

AP Racing CP8350 Essex "Sprint" and "Endurance" caliper: 5.4lbs (Caliper + bracket)
AP Racing CP3862 "Sprint" rotor: 11.2lbs (ring only), 12.2lbs (ring + hat + hardware)
AP Racing CP3908 "Endurance" rotor: 16.4lbs (ring only), 17.6 lbs (ring + hat + hardware)

The AP Racing Calipers and rotor setups use a 21mm pad (16mm pad material) vs the 15mm pad (10mm pad material) of the stock setup and many BBKs. Additionally, these setups use 32mm thick rotors, instead of 28mm thick rotors of many common BBKs (e.g. Stoptech).

Anyone local is welcome to stop by our shop and hold these parts in their hands to see how light they are.

Sprint template: http://www.essexparts.com/media/down...eltemplate.pdf
Endurance template: http://www.essexparts.com/media/down...eltemplate.pdf


Yeah, we love our setup. We have a long term (1 year) review coming soon.

[CSG Mike]

Originally Posted by ZionsWrath

I think the consensus is if you are going to track your car a good amount a BBK will over time be more economical as well as providing the weight savings. I too am looking at brakes but until my commute is not 50 miles/day year round I don't want to get BBK and have it eaten by road salt

By our math, discounting any equity you have in a used BBK, based our rates of consumption (Rotor vs pad), by the time you go through 2 sets of race pads and 1 set of rotors on the Essex "Sprint" BBK, you'd have gone though 6-7 sets of OEM sized race pads, and likely 6-7 sets of rotors.

220 (average brake pad cost for AP CP8350) x2 + 158 x2 = 796 for brakes for ~25 track days
210 (average brake pad cost for stock caliper) x6 + 110 x12 = 2580 for brakes for ~25 track days with OEM brakes

These figures don't include the brake fluid you're going to have to change more often with the OEM brakes, or the labor (or time) you have to put into constantly swapping pads and rotors.

This is why we decided to get a BBK very early in our BRZ's life. Initially, we saw the WRX front brakes and thought the car may have been adequately braked from the factory, but it turns out that even with the lower weight and power output compared to the WRX, the brakes were still insufficient when it came to reducing operating cost.

We were, however, successful in preventing fade on track by stepping up to extremely aggressive compounds with the stock brake rotors, but this is not ideal. I do this on my personal s2k, and I've gone through at LEAST 40+ rotors and 20+ sets of brake pads. If only getting a BBK to fit on a s2k were easy...

[Anthony]

Originally Posted by CSG Mike

AP Racing CP3862 "Sprint" rotor: 11.2lbs (ring only), 12.2lbs (ring + hat + hardware)
AP Racing CP3908 "Endurance" rotor: 16.4lbs (ring only), 17.6 lbs (ring + hat + hardware)

I see that the calipers can be used on the front or rear, but how about the rotors?

Originally Posted by CSG Mike

220 (average brake pad cost for AP CP8350) x2 + 158 x2 = 796 for brakes for ~25 track days
210 (average brake pad cost for stock caliper) x6 + 110 x12 = 2580 for brakes for ~25 track days with OEM brakes

These figures don't include the brake fluid you're going to have to change more often with the OEM brakes, or the labor (or time) you have to put into constantly swapping pads and rotors.

This is why we decided to get a BBK very early in our BRZ's life.

Those are some fun facts. I'm glad I was so wrong about how long it would take.

[CSG Mike]

Originally Posted by Anthony

I see that the calipers can be used on the front or rear, but how about the rotors?

With the appropriate hat and an e-brake delete, I don't see why they can't.

Please do keep in mind that those rotors are directional.

Originally Posted by Anthony

Those are some fun facts. I'm glad I was so wrong about how long it would take.

Our rate of brake consumption is far higher than that of a novice driver, whos brake usage will be a lot slower. I'd expect to hit similar consumption rates as us once you have a few years of experience, unless you're getting coached (in which case rate of improvement, as well as rate of consumption will he heavily accelerated).

I think the record for a single customer for the FR-S/BRZ is 6 sets of race pads in the last year already. We did advise him, as well as other regulars, to get a BBK for long term savings...

[Anthony]

Originally Posted by CSG Mike

With the appropriate hat and an e-brake delete, I don't see why they can't.

Well then, should I delete the "front" and "rear" groups from the rotor section in the OP? Because wouldn't that mean any rotor could be used on the front and rear? Or would it be be better to leave as is?

I mean if the company markets them as front or rear only, it seems like I should keep them separated here. On the other hand, if it's common knowledge that rotors can easily be made to work on either end, then maybe I should just have one list of rotors instead of dividing them up into front and rear. I'm a super noob when it comes to big brake kits.

[CSG Mike]

Originally Posted by Anthony

Well then, should I delete the "front" and "rear" groups from the rotor section in the OP? Because wouldn't that mean any rotor could be used on the front and rear? Or would it be be better to leave as is?

I mean if the company markets them as front or rear only, it seems like I should keep them separated here. On the other hand, if it's common knowledge that rotors can easily be made to work on either end, then maybe I should just have one list of rotors instead of dividing them up into front and rear. I'm a super noob when it comes to big brake kits.

I'd recommend leaving them separated as front and rear; while the rings *can* be used in the rear, the hats to do so have not been designed.

[Anthony]

So both the rotors you listed are marketed as front rotors?

[CSG Mike]

Originally Posted by Anthony

So both the rotors you listed are marketed as front rotors?

Correct! They're also specific to the CP8350 caliper, although they can theoretically be used with any caliper that can reasonable accommodate a 32mm-width rotor.

[celica73]

Originally Posted by CSG Mike

By our math, discounting any equity you have in a used BBK, based our rates of consumption (Rotor vs pad), by the time you go through 2 sets of race pads and 1 set of rotors on the Essex "Sprint" BBK, you'd have gone though 6-7 sets of OEM sized race pads, and likely 6-7 sets of rotors.

Does your math account for any brake cooling with the stock brakes. I haven't seen many accounts of people running brake ducts. How does that change the equation?

220 (average brake pad cost for AP CP8350) x2 + 158 x2 = 796 for brakes for ~25 track days
210 (average brake pad cost for stock caliper) x6 + 110 x12 = 2580 for brakes for ~25 track days with OEM brakes

huh? What is the $110x12 line? Are you doing front and rear rotors with stock brakes, but only front rotors with the BBK?

I'm paying about $190/set for front race pads (Hawk or Carbotech) and $40/rotor for front rotors (Centric premium).