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FR-S / BRZ vs.... Area to discuss the FR-S/BRZ against its competitors [NO STREET RACING]

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Old 03-21-2012, 08:31 PM   #1
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Scion sibling rivalry, FR-S vs tC

Thought I'd throw this up out of interest due to the speculated $24.2k pricing thread. Doesn't apply too much to the RWD focused buyers, but wonder how it would look to Joe Average or Suzy Secretary. Also, if the $24.2k price is legit, is it justified?

tC
$19.3k
2+2 Coupe
FWD
2.5L
180 hp @ 6000
173 lb-ft @ 4100
6M or 6A
Vented disc/solid disc brakes f/r
Electric power steering
MacPherson strut front suspension
Double Wishbone rear suspension
18" rims
225/45R18 tires
'Normal' Injection
23/31 MPG city/hwy
3060 lbs manual
Strong aftermarket support


FR-S
$24.2k ???
2+2ish Coupe
RWD
2.0L
200 hp @ 7000 rpm
151 lb-ft @ 6600 rpm
6M or 6A
Vented disc/Vented disc brakes f/r
Electric power steering
MacPherson strut front suspension
Double Wishbone rear suspension
17" rims
215/45R17 tires
D4-S port/direct combination injection
20-something/30-something MPG
~2700 lbs
Will have strong aftermarket support.

So not counting the weight and RWD, very similar cars. But if the $24.2k is correct, that's ~25% more money for a rather similar car.

Both cars are somewhat 'parts bin' in nature, but the FR-S had an associate company contributing to the development and manufacturing costs.

Is the apparent 'proper execution' really worth a 25% premium from a purely financial standpoint (rear LSD diff, driveshaft and 4 extra injectors worth ~$5k) ? How much is 'passion' worth in dollars?

On a side note, the pricing may keep this car more available to the enthusiasts, as the 'sporty coupe' buyers may be dissuaded by sticker shock, and just opt for the much cheaper tC instead.

Thoughts?

Scion sales department thoughts on this would be interesting as well. How do they sell the two cars?
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Old 03-21-2012, 08:49 PM   #2
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Funny from that breakdown I it doesn't look at all like they aren't very similar. The FR-S seems to be a little better in just about every category which adds up to a lot better over all.

Also the Tc would generally be considered 4 seats. The FR-S is pretty much the definition of 2+2 seating.
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Old 03-21-2012, 08:58 PM   #3
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Quote:
Originally Posted by neutron256 View Post
Funny from that breakdown I it doesn't look at all like they aren't very similar. The FR-S seems to be a little better in just about every category which adds up to a lot better over all.

Also the Tc would generally be considered 4 seats. The FR-S is pretty much the definition of 2+2 seating.
Really? They trade about 20 hp for 20 lb-ft, suspension same, transmissions same, FR-S smaller wheels and tires. tC has super fancy glass roof, that I forgot to mention...

Looking at it without the 'hype goggles' would an average buyer say that the price difference is justified?
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Old 03-21-2012, 09:01 PM   #4
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Originally Posted by Dimman View Post

Looking at it without the 'hype goggles' would an average buyer say that the price difference is justified?
No. No way a salesperson is going to talk a prospective tC buyer into a car $5k+ more.
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Old 03-21-2012, 09:02 PM   #5
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From a casual glance using the lens of John Q Public, it doesn't make sense why one 2-door costs 4k less when the other 2-door still has 4 cylinders, a smaller backseat, and barely more hp. Bet the tC has more cup holders too.
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Old 03-21-2012, 09:03 PM   #6
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Originally Posted by Capt Canuck View Post
No. No way a salesperson is going to talk a prospective tC buyer into a car $5k+ more.
So if mechanics:dollars Joe Average would have a tough time justifying the difference, why don't we?

Passion is expensive...
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Old 03-21-2012, 09:06 PM   #7
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Originally Posted by Dimman View Post
Really? They trade about 20 hp for 20 lb-ft, suspension same, transmissions same, FR-S smaller wheels and tires. tC has super fancy glass roof, that I forgot to mention...

Looking at it without the 'hype goggles' would an average buyer say that the price difference is justified?
Quote:
Originally Posted by OrbitalEllipses View Post
From a casual glance using the lens of John Q Public, it doesn't make sense why one 2-door costs 5k less when the other 2-door still has 4 cylinders, a smaller backseat, and barely more hp. Bet the tC has more cup holders too.
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Old 03-21-2012, 09:07 PM   #8
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It really is interesting. Although not a drivers car per say, the TC is a far better value for your money...
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Old 03-21-2012, 09:09 PM   #9
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Well for one thing, a car is sorta like a fashion statement of sorts, and a tC loses by a long shot in the looks department :P

Other than that, you're right, very hard to justify the purchase.
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Old 03-21-2012, 09:10 PM   #10
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Originally Posted by KaliKev View Post
It really is interesting. Although not a drivers car per say, the TC is a far better value for your money...
Yup as a daily-driver, practical coupe, you wouldn't give the FRS a second look. There is no value in it over the tC, from that point of view...

...that said I've never given Scion a second look before the FRS :-)
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Old 03-21-2012, 09:23 PM   #11
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Have you driven a stock TC?

I have taken the 2011 out for a couple of test drives and it feels like my wife's 4 cylinder Rav4. It just is NOT fun to drive.

Were any reviewers giving it a 10 out of 10 for driving pleasure?

I expect a lot more pep and fun from the FRS.
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Old 03-21-2012, 09:29 PM   #12
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(sorry tC owners) The tC can be the girl's car, and the FRS the boy's car... Tada.. RWD, low engine with wishbone suspension and a lower sportier looking car for about $5k more is fine. Only $3k would have been better
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Old 03-21-2012, 09:43 PM   #13
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(sorry tC owners) The tC can be the girl's car, and the FRS the boy's car... Tada.. RWD, low engine with wishbone suspension and a lower sportier looking car for about $5k more is fine. Only $3k would have been better
:happy0180:
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Old 03-21-2012, 10:22 PM   #14
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Dimman's post is still interesting if you really think about it and take any subjective preference/fanboy favoritism out of the equation. Makes you wonder where those extra $5k goes? RWD layout? Boxer engine? Engine being lower and further back?
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Old 03-21-2012, 11:32 PM   #15
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Quote:
Originally Posted by zootramp View Post
Have you driven a stock TC?

I have taken the 2011 out for a couple of test drives and it feels like my wife's 4 cylinder Rav4. It just is NOT fun to drive.

Were any reviewers giving it a 10 out of 10 for driving pleasure?

I expect a lot more pep and fun from the FRS.
Well it practically IS the 4 cylinder from a Rav4 (well 2.5L from the Camry, but thats also pretty much the same engine lol). And yes it is far from a sporty engine. It has good power, but its a VERY LAZY engine.

One car is a sports car, the other car is a sporty car.
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Old 03-22-2012, 06:14 AM   #16
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I used to own a Release Series 2.0 tC, i sold it because

A. It is not fast, It is not sporty, no matter how hard you try it IS NOT SPORTY/SPORTS CAR/FAST i had all kinds of mods on it, exhaust, intake, short throw, tower bar..just..not..sporty..its a practical college car.

B. I dont fit in it, the mandatory sunroof, while awesome cuts down headroom.

FR-S is in a different league. price IS 2,000 more than what it should be, but Toyota wants to make money on their 4 year endeavor
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Old 03-22-2012, 07:23 AM   #17
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No. No way a salesperson is going to talk a prospective tC buyer into a car $5k+ more.
Agreed, but how many people that come in to see the FR-S will walk out with a tC?
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Old 03-22-2012, 07:48 AM   #18
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"The second-generation tC is built from the third-generation Toyota Avensis platform."

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Scion_TC#Second_generation

I was actually pleasantly surprised when I first got into a tC. They're a damn fine car and if I were still right out of college I'd probably strongly consider one. They aren't a sports car though. They're a modified family car made to look more appealing to a different group of people. Nothing wrong with that but as others have stated, sort of an apples to oranges comparison.
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Old 03-22-2012, 07:54 AM   #19
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"The second-generation tC is built from the third-generation Toyota Avensis platform."

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Scion_TC#Second_generation

I was actually pleasantly surprised when I first got into a tC. They're a damn fine car and if I were still right out of college I'd probably strongly consider one. They aren't a sports car though. They're a modified family car made to look more appealing to a different group of people. Nothing wrong with that but as others have stated, sort of an apples to oranges comparison.
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Old 03-22-2012, 08:55 AM   #20
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To me, I don't even see the two cars in the same category and I doubt Scion does either. The tC is a true 2+2, while the FR-S is not (at least not to me, sat in the BRZ yesterday and that back seat is not usable unless the person driving is 5' tall). RWD is a true sports car platform, FWD is obviously not. Development of a brand new motor, chassis, new seat designed for the car, etc. There was a ton of engineering that went into this vehicle that can't be ignored. I think all judgement should be reserved until you get to drive it.
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Old 03-22-2012, 09:33 AM   #21
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To me, I don't even see the two cars in the same category and I doubt Scion does either. The tC is a true 2+2, while the FR-S is not (at least not to me, sat in the BRZ yesterday and that back seat is not usable unless the person driving is 5' tall). RWD is a true sports car platform, FWD is obviously not. Development of a brand new motor, chassis, new seat designed for the car, etc. There was a ton of engineering that went into this vehicle that can't be ignored. I think all judgement should be reserved until you get to drive it.
Don't confuse 2+2 seating with 4 seats.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2%2B2_(car_body_style)

2+2 means the back seats are small and not meant for regular use. The tC is a four seat coupe.
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Old 03-22-2012, 09:54 AM   #22
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The dynamics difference I completely understand. But the do the dollar figures really make sense?

Toyota puts tons of development into NVH abolishing to make their other cars more appliance-like, so that isn't it. And they both share components with mass-produced siblings.

Plus the tC has bigger rims and tires and the glass roof. We are talking about $5k for nominal mechanical differences. On a split-development cost car.

And the BRZ guys are also already hearing $1k-$5k dealer mark-ups.

Something to think about if you see 'market adjustment' pricing.

I wonder how much the FR-S in the showroom will enhance tC sales, too.
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