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FR-S / BRZ vs.... Area to discuss the FR-S/BRZ against its competitors [NO STREET RACING]


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Old 02-09-2012, 12:07 AM   #15
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Heard early ones had a recall for rod or crank bearings. That one of your uncle's problems?
He had nagging sub-frame issues, needed to replace bushings on a yearly basis, and went through I don't know how many sets of window regulators...and I'm not sure but he may have had some oil consumption issues as well.

It just seemed like every time I talked to him, the car had been to the shop recently or was still in the shop...
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Old 02-09-2012, 06:52 PM   #16
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I ran into the window regulator problem about 3 times in as many years along with a nagging issue with the sunroof coming off the tracks (5 times total), however that was covered by a dealer warranty (not the original ) .....last "electrical problem" i faced was a HK door tweeter that popped, but that only happened once and happened surprisingly while the car was off and parked, never figured that out.

As for the Vanos issue, that problem was solved within weeks of the discovery in the M52 world, loctite solved it, absolutely solved it..However if you wanted to 1 up and get a factory solution they fixed it a few years into the e46 M3 with a new specd set of locking bolts (could just be swapped out the same time you replaced your vanos unit)

The sub frame issue i see was brought up also..that was just the nature of the beast, it's still a problem.. You either reinforced it yourself or bought an aftermarket unit..And when you do that you run the risk of splitting steel else where. I knew a few people who's strut mounts cracked out due to a combination of bushing density and lack of reinforcement in enough locations to distribute the force on that plate. but it was all do-able..

but these were the reasons I traded out for the E36 M3..much better M all around imho, i was never a fan of the e46 generation going into it and still was not a fan coming out of it. Too soft overall, much more "woman" centric M-car...makes sense since it was bangles first debacle..
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Old 02-09-2012, 07:37 PM   #17
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Let me jump into this one with both feet. I used to be self proclaimed Bimmer man and have had several Bimmers in the past. Most recently '07 Z4 3.0si and a '04 E46 M3. I've owned E46 ZHP's, M Roadster, Z3 M, 330i, etc. Like I said I used to be a Bimmer man, but... and it's a big but not anymore. They've just gone mental like Porsche. I mean a fully loaded E92 335is is $65k+ and a new M3 $85k+??? Mental I tell you!

In any case, let's get back to the subject at hand. My most recent Z4 3.0si had it's entire head replaced twice under warrenty and the entire motor replaced once. After that I was done. I sold it after less than 2 yrs of ownership. The E46 M3 I had the engine blow up once and the engine replaced only to have the motor die again twice. Once on the fwy. I think it spent more time at the dealer than in my garage. After that I was done and had my buddy, who is a slick lawyer, have BMW America buy the car back.

But my impression of the E46 M3,which is probably my favorite Bimmer I've ever owned next to the E46 ZHP, is that it was really good. Handled great and the motor was really strong. The thing that killed it for me was the SMG II. I live in LA and traffic is a bitch. In stop n go traffic the tranny kicks like a mule. Also, the ride is really stiff. Like bruise your kidneys stiff. So it got really annoying on bad roads, which is pretty much all we get here in metro LA. One thing though, I did take it on the track a couple of times and then that's really when I began to appreciate how good the car was. The SMG II really came into it's own on the track and really made me feel like I was some race car driver. Unfortunately, I didn't take the car to the track as much as I'd have liked. Sometimes I miss the car, but I think the BRZ will fix that! :happy0180:
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Old 02-09-2012, 07:45 PM   #18
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Always about the weight. lol You need to drive one of these or is it still too heavy?

Still too heavy for him. Get rid of the bells and whistles (motor, brakes, suspension, pedals, gas tank). All he needs is a steering wheel, a seat, a chassis and his god given Flintstones powerplant.
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Old 02-13-2012, 04:50 AM   #19
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Let me jump into this one with both feet. I used to be self proclaimed Bimmer man and have had several Bimmers in the past. Most recently '07 Z4 3.0si and a '04 E46 M3. I've owned E46 ZHP's, M Roadster, Z3 M, 330i, etc. Like I said I used to be a Bimmer man, but... and it's a big but not anymore. They've just gone mental like Porsche. I mean a fully loaded E92 335is is $65k+ and a new M3 $85k+??? Mental I tell you!
Just curious as to where you're located that you're getting shafted so bad on Bayerische prices?
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Old 02-13-2012, 09:52 AM   #20
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Still too heavy for him. Get rid of the bells and whistles (motor, brakes, suspension, pedals, gas tank). All he needs is a steering wheel, a seat, a chassis and his god given Flintstones powerplant.
I just think that a 3500 lb M3 is a travesty, a more sophisticated and upmarket Camaro rather than a proper evolution of the original E30 M3 ideals.

FRS/BRZ are comparable to the original M3. Similar specs but at a much lower price point. Now *that's* progress. The M3's devolepment has just been to add ever more mass and power, not at all true to the ideals of minimalism, light(ish) weight, and maximized FUN.
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Old 02-13-2012, 10:11 AM   #21
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If I could have either car, and lived in a fantasy land where everything had a million year warranty and nothing ever broke, I'd go for the M3 every time. It's more of a GT than the FR-S/BRZ, but the performance, feel, sounds, etc are awesome.

Sadly, I live in realityland, and used M3s have some pretty significant maintainance requirements and no warranty
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Old 02-13-2012, 11:23 AM   #22
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I just think that a 3500 lb M3 is a travesty, a more sophisticated and upmarket Camaro rather than a proper evolution of the original E30 M3 ideals.

FRS/BRZ are comparable to the original M3. Similar specs but at a much lower price point. Now *that's* progress. The M3's devolepment has just been to add ever more mass and power, not at all true to the ideals of minimalism, light(ish) weight, and maximized FUN.
Progress is, essentially, re-creating a 90's BMW, and selling it for less? That's an interesting take on progress.
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Old 02-13-2012, 12:16 PM   #23
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It is WAY more relevant to real-world driving enjoyment than the modern uber-M3's excess. If your enthusiasm is all about numbers, sure, modern M3s are "better". But any number of BMWphiles would agree with my point: the original was more pure and more FUN.
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Old 02-13-2012, 02:57 PM   #24
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It is WAY more relevant to real-world driving enjoyment than the modern uber-M3's excess. If your enthusiasm is all about numbers, sure, modern M3s are "better". But any number of BMWphiles would agree with my point: the original was more pure and more FUN.
For the record I was joking before, just poking a little fun at your minimalist weight obsession :P.

But I'll add a little insight to this seeing as I've been working for the company for a while now. The current iteration of the BMW name/performance/driving feel, is that bread for competition. Sure minimalist vehicles are FUN but miata drivers, old school CRX owners, RX8 owners, and future FRS owners will tell you they don't produce the best all around numbers. Not to mention your perception of what is "pure and more fun" is highly subjective, most people just enjoy the feeling of being put back in their seat and then taking a corner at an ungodly speed; which regardless of how much they weigh, new BMW's are VERY capable of doing.

Also, you need to consider the demographic BMW's are marketed to and the competition that exists in that market demographic. Your typical M3 owner isn't your average joe making average joe money, that's just a fact; call them upper middle class at the very least. Now their reason for doing that is for the simple fact that luxury and prestige sell. Need an example? Take the Boss 302. It out performs the M3 in every sense of the word but what do you think impresses NON-Enthusiasts (the majority of the automotive market) more, actual performance or the Logo BMW and comperable performance that you can feel? Both cars will put you back in your seat, both cars corner extraodinarily well (albiet one a bit better than the the other), and both cars "in my opinion" look amazing. The big difference? Cost of ownership, Emblem, Luxury and prestige. Want proof, ask any random Man or Woman on the street "Are you a performance minded automotive enthusiast?" If they answer "what??" or "No, I don't know much about cars" or just simply "No" follow that question up with "BMW M3 or Ford Mustang Boss 302"; I can confidently say 4 out of 5 people will say BMW M3.

Now public image aside lets look at the M3's competitors, Audi RS4 / RS5, Mercedes C63 AMG, and the soon to be Cadillac ATS-V. All luxury sports coupe / sedans, all fairly costly, all not what you would call "minimalist". That's just the way things have turned out for the M3 and if they went back to the lightweight/moderate horsepower/maximum handling potential route, they would lose sales. Period. And the BMW M "cash cow" wouldn't be the BMW M cash cow anymore.

So like it or not, you're in the minority. Also, having driven many a e46/e92 M3 and a few e30's, I can confidently tell you they are PLENTY of fun and don't need to be as light as the e30 to stay that way.




Edit: Listen bro, I know it may seem this way but I have no personal vendetta against you or your ideals pertaining to cars. The only thing I'm saying is a world where manufacturers cater to enthusiasts with pre-existing platforms refusing to adapt to the needs/wants of present society is nothing short of fictitious. If they did, they'd all be belly up.

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Old 02-13-2012, 04:20 PM   #25
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But I'll add a little insight to this seeing as I've been working for the company for a while now. The current iteration of the BMW name/performance/driving feel, is that bread for competition.
"Bred" for competition? Not really. By and large they are luxury cars that put up stellar performance numbers, but they are further and further removed from being good track cars.

You can't even get a limited slip in a non-M BMW any more. Way back when you could get a clutch-type lsd in the lowliest 318i!

The E36 is really the last good BMW track car, IMO.

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Sure minimalist vehicles are FUN but miata drivers, old school CRX owners, RX8 owners, and future FRS owners will tell you they don't produce the best all around numbers. Not to mention your perception of what is "pure and more fun" is highly subjective, most people just enjoy the feeling of being put back into their seat and then taking a corner at an ungodly speed; which regardless of how much they way, new BMW's are VERY capable of doing.
Yeah, they put up good numbers. But 99% of the time on the street (unless your an ass), you're not going to be driving in any kind of way where you can appreciate the ultimate performance capability. Smaller lighter-weight cars just feel more fun *all* the time.

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Also, you need to consider the demographic BMW's are marketed to, and the competition that exists in that market demographic. Your typical M3 owner isn't your average joe making average joe money, that's just a fact; call them upper middle class at the very least. Now their reason for doing that is for the simple fact that luxury and prestige sell.
Not as much as economy/practicality does. Unfortunately BMW doesn't have the guts to do another 2002 type car.

IMO they could expand their market quite a bit if they'd simply do a car like the Mini, but rwd. Simple, small, lightweight, affordable, FUN. They've grown far too comfortable building high-$$$ luxury sedans and SUVs. Even the 1-series is a 3300 lb. boat!

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Now public image aside lets look at the M3's competitors, Audi RS4 / RS5, Mercedes C63 AMG, and the soon to be Cadillac ATS-V. All luxury sports coupe / sedans, all fairly costly, all not what you would call "minimalist". That's just the way things have turned out for the M3 and if they went back to the lightweight/moderate horsepower/maximum handling potential route, they would lose sales. Period. And BMW M "cash cow" wouldn't be their M cash cow anymore.
I don't think that they'd necessarily lose sales by doing something similar to the E30 M3 or FR-S/BRZ. It was not NECESSARY for the M3 to evolve the way it did, it could have continued to add performance without adding so much weight, power, and cost. They *chose* to evolve it in the superluxocar direction.
It is entirely possible that they *could* be selling a lot more smaller/lighter/cheaper cars than they are selling 3700 lb. 414hp M3s. They simply chose to go the maximalist luxoboat route.

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So like it or not, you're in the minority. Also, having driven many a e46/e92 M3 and a few e30's, I can confidently tell you they are PLENTY of fun and don't need to be as light as the e30 to stay that way.
I've driven my share, too. The bigger/heavier cars *always* feel bigger and heavier, and not at all like the E30.

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The only thing I'm saying is a world where manufacturers cater to enthusiasts with pre-existing platforms refusing to adapt to the needs/wants of present society is nothing short of fictitious. If they did, they'd all be belly up.
Of course manufacturers must do their best to serve up what the public wants. But the smaller/lighter-weight performance segment has been all but ignored save for the Miata, and I think that a LOT of opportunites to sell cars have been MISSED.

BMW *could* have built a much smaller, lighter-weight car with the same power/weight as the current M3. Such a car would have given the same real-world and track performance with a smaller, less powerful engine, smaller tires, smaller wheels, smaller brakes. I would be *cheaper*, and they would most likely sell a ton of them.

Here's hoping the FR-S/BRZ sell a ton and wake BMW and other manufacturers up to the idea of performance and driving enjoyment through minimalism rather than always "more more more".
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Old 02-13-2012, 05:24 PM   #26
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"Bred" for competition? Not really. By and large they are luxury cars that put up stellar performance numbers, but they are further and further removed from being good track cars.
BMW are excellent track cars, you just don't consider them as such. All the numbers and proof are there to support that claim. What makes them even better is they're excellent cars that perform well, allow the driver to feel nothing short of confident going into or exiting a corner / driving at high speeds and they offer a comfortable amount of luxury. You can't sit there and tell me that you can put the words luxury, lightweight, and class leading five star safety in the same sentence. Go ahead, I dare you.

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You can't even get a limited slip in a non-M BMW any more. Way back when you could get a clutch-type lsd in the lowliest 318i!
Why would you need one in the non-M models when they aren't tailored towards a harsher riding sporty driving feel.

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The E36 is really the last good BMW track car, IMO.
You're out of your mind. Period.

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Yeah, they put up good numbers. But 99% of the time on the street (unless your an ass), you're not going to be driving in any kind of way where you can appreciate the ultimate performance capability. Smaller lighter-weight cars just feel more fun *all* the time.
You're playing two arguements now. So you're saying the current M3's aren't good track cars but they put up good numbers on the track . Smalelr light-weight cars aren't luxurious, which is what the BMW name stands for. Luxury, Performance, and Prestige.

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Not as much as economy/practicality does. Unfortunately BMW doesn't have the guts to do another 2002 type car.

IMO they could expand their market quite a bit if they'd simply do a car like the Mini, but rwd. Simple, small, lightweight, affordable, FUN. They've grown far too comfortable building high-$$$ luxury sedans and SUVs. Even the 1-series is a 3300 lb. boat!
Guts =/= Intelligence. Maybe you forgot that Mini = BMW. Maybe you also forgot BMW is a highline auto, they don't DO simple. A simple car with a BMW logo on the front would hurt the brand name. It doesn't have a thing to do with guts but rather public perception. In what universe did 3300lb's become considered "boat" worthy? IMO 3300lbs that includes luxury, safety, enough computers to make a man from the 70's weep tears of blood, AND superb handling with more than reasonable horsepower is MORE than a compromise.

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I don't think that they'd necessarily lose sales by doing something similar to the E30 M3 or FR-S/BRZ. It was not NECESSARY for the M3 to evolve the way it did, it could have continued to add performance without adding so much weight, power, and cost. They *chose* to evolve it in the superluxocar direction.
It is entirely possible that they *could* be selling a lot more smaller/lighter/cheaper cars than they are selling 3700 lb. 414hp M3s. They simply chose to go the maximalist luxoboat route.
This is why you don't work in sales. You've such a narrow perception of what the automotive world should be like that were you ever to run the R&D side of an automotive company you'd be selling about as much cars as Lotus. You're mentality is more suited for niche brand marketing, and niche brand franchises are often owned by larger general companies because they don't offer enough to stand on their own two feet.
It was VERY NECESSARY for the M3 to evolve the way it did. People that drive BMW's like to feel comfortable in their cars, people that drive BMW's like to have storage space in their cars, people in BMW's want cars with seats that grab you with lumbar support that turns with you and allows a hightened sense of confidence while cornering, people that drive BMW's like their I-Drive knob and central display, people that drive BMW's like their steering wheels heated and their backs massaged while they drive, people that drive BMW's like their dashboards NOT made of plastic, THE OVERWHELMING MAJORITY OF PEOPLE THAT PURCHASE/LEASE BMW'S LIKE LUXURY AND YOU CAN'T FIT LUXURY AND LIGHTWEIGHT IN THE SAME SENTENCE. Actually, yes you can; you'll just be paying an arm and a soul for a car made entirely of carbon fibre.

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I've driven my share, too. The bigger/heavier cars *always* feel bigger and heavier, and not at all like the E30.
And looks at the specs for the e30, now look at the specs for the e92 or the e46. Clearly the added weight isn't negatively effecting the vehicles. If you want to play the "time period doesn't matter" game, then we'll play. An e92 would smack an e30 all around a track regardless of how an e30 feels. See how stupid that was? Now tell me how the size and weight of a vehicle produce two decades ago is supposed to have any bearing on a vehicle produced in the present. Must be all those computers and safety equipment that they chose not to put in back in the late 80's (/sarcasm).


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Of course manufacturers must do their best to serve up what the public wants. But the smaller/lighter-weight performance segment has been all but ignored save for the Miata, and I think that a LOT of opportunites to sell cars have been MISSED.
BMW brought back Mini. How much more recognition do you need? They AREN'T going to put their emblem on a minimalist vehicle. The $$$ that goes into the R&D for a niche performance vehicle that won't sell a large number of units per year would do nothing but create an intentional fiscal hemorrhage. Why would anyone with even half a brain do that to their own company?

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BMW *could* have built a much smaller, lighter-weight car with the same power/weight as the current M3. Such a car would have given the same real-world and track performance with a smaller, less powerful engine, smaller tires, smaller wheels, smaller brakes. I would be *cheaper*, and they would most likely sell a ton of them.
Cheap isn't BMW's concern, that's why they're a highline auto and Toyota isn't. That's what toyota has Lexus for, and you let me know when Toyota creates a Lexus version of the FRS for an "affordable" price.

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Here's hoping the FR-S/BRZ sell a ton and wake BMW and other manufacturers up to the idea of performance and driving enjoyment through minimalism rather than always "more more more".
"Here's hoping a blue collar minimalist sports car has any bearing on highline auto manufactuers whose main concern is luxury/performance not simplistic low cost performance."
You're asking for 90 degree weather with a bit of snow.
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Old 02-13-2012, 08:51 PM   #27
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"Here's hoping a blue collar minimalist sports car has any bearing on highline auto manufactuers whose main concern is luxury/performance not simplistic low cost performance."
You're asking for 90 degree weather with a bit of snow.
Do not invent quotes and attribute them to me.

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Old 02-14-2012, 03:53 AM   #28
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Just curious as to where you're located that you're getting shafted so bad on Bayerische prices?
I'm in LA.
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