I think some people need a reality check...

[fatoni]

Originally Posted by FRSowner

This is a $25,000 car. In today's marketplace, that's 'bargain basement'. Too many people are complaining about poor quality stereo, no steering wheel controls, poor visibility, and other bullshit 'issues'. I think many of them would be better off selling their FR-S/BRZ and buying something that has better ergonomics and accouterments, like maybe a mini-van?

Seriously, many of you don't realize what a great package deal this vehicle is. I've owned MANY cars and unless something major pops up repeatedly on cars across the world like engine fires, crankshafts cracking in half, wheels falling off, etc., it's NOT a big deal at this price point. Rattles in the dashboard, speaker covers that don't stay attached, and other trivial stuff is just going to piss off the dealerships when people keep bugging them about it and take away their time and resources to deal with real problems. This car is NOT perfect. Little flaws like these should be taken care of by the owners.

If you want a top quality vehicle, spend the money and buy a $50,000+ priced car. This car was a vision and concessions were made to achieve the vision and still make it affordable. Yes, Toyota/Subaru probably pulled existing stuff off the shelf and fitted it to the car. Yes, they probably scrimped a little on the selection of materials to use. That's called cost-cutting measures. If they would have spent more on development, the car would have been priced significantly higher.

Legitimate problems should be addressed (taillight moisture, idling issues) but this 'the sky is falling' mentality because the driver can hear the differential whine at 85 mph really needs to be reeled in. Just my opinion.

this is a forum where people come to talk about the car, both good and bad.

[White64Goat]

The BRZ Limited is closer to $30K with just a couple of accessories, and you think that's bargain basement for a car? If $50K cars or $100K cars had no problems, they're would be no need for service bays at car dealers, they would just need to sell them and since they cost that much, they should have no problems............yeah.....right. Should a $25K car have more problems than a $100K car, not really. I work not far from a dealer that services Bentleys, Rolls-Royce and Maybach's and there is never a day that I go by there that there aren't cars in the shop, so cost has really little to do with gremlins and little problems.

The problem with the moisture in the taillights (and it seems to be the passenger side from what I've read so far) could be as simple as the vendor who is supplying the part to the factory is/was only putting 1/64th of an inch in sealant in the groove when it should be an 1/8th of an inch because someone read the spec. wrong and it is possible that the same vendor is not supplying the left taillight and that's why there has not been a problem with the drivers side.

People who say "It's a first year car or model, I'll wait until next year to buy one"......why? Next year they could make a number of changes to the car and it be worse. Not a valid argument as I see it. I've owned a couple of first year cars (89 Nissan 240SX and 2001 Chrysler PT Cruiser) and between the two of them they had 2 or 3 TSB's issued total (1 on the Nissan) and never had much problem with either since after TSB's were issued. The Nissan had over 250,000 miles on it when I sold it and I still have the PT. I also had an 87 Buick Regal T-Type turbocharged and that car was the worst American car I ever owned and it actually got traded in when I bought the Nissan and it was built on a Wednesday, which shot the old "never buy a car that is built on a Monday or a Friday" all to hell and it was not a first year car.

[Chewie4299]

I keep seeing it on the forums as well. People are losing it over tiny non-issues. I don't know how many transmission thump threads I've seen when it's been clearly explained that the thump is normal and no harm is being done.

Edit: I'm glad there has been a new sub-forum added to consolidate these threads and hopefully provide the relevant information to someone who was about to flip a shit and post about a new noise they heard with a fresh thread thereby calming them down and educating them before starting yet another mass panic.

[finch1750]

Originally Posted by SUB-FT86

I think a lot of people expected since it was a Toyota/Subaru product that it should be perfect. People have a misconception that Japanese car manufacturers especially Toyota is by far the most quality oriented automaker on the planet so I think that's one of the reason these guys are angry.

its a Subaru and people knew that. Subarus make weird noises and rattle like a mofo. Just sayin. Lol

[Enilder]

Originally Posted by FRSowner

In response to a few replies to my initial posting...

I've owned Porches and BMW's in the past. Great cars but I think they are over-rated and the replacement part prices are ridiculous, so I do have some knowledge of 'higher end' cars. Those experiences do allow me to put the FR-S in perspective though.

I really don't care what others think but I do enjoy a forum that is upbeat and positive. I *think* for many owners of FR-S/BRZ's , that is their first NEW car and their expectations are too high. For those that have not purchased one yet, the near constant negative reports posted might drive them to another brand/car.
Because of some of these negative threads, I have gone out and looked at my taillights more than once, listened to my engine for chirping more than once, and a couple other 'issues'. My car exhibits NONE of the 'problems' posted. Maybe I got a good one or *maybe* some owners are a bit paranoid or have super-human sight/hearing that I do not posses.

I do have my gripes about my FR-S (see the 'what do you hate about your car" thread) but it's more of a design thing than actual problems.

I test drove many other comparable cars before buying (HYundai GC, Mustang, MX-5, Camaro and lots of used cars like the Z3, Z4, etc) and I chose the FR-S because I felt it was the best value for the money and it does what I want it to do. I won't be posting complaints that it doesn't haul 2x4's or do the 1/4 mile in under 13 seconds because that is NOT what is was designed to do. I have realistic expectations and my years of car ownership experience allows me to determine what car is a piece of shit and what is not. So far (@ 900 miles), the FR-S seems like a great car. Ask me again after 15,000 miles and I might have a different opinion, but I hope not.

I'm didn't make that post to piss people off but some people seem to bash these cars for the most irrelevant reasons.

Also, I find it somewhat odd that up until this posting, the majority of the responses on this thread are from those guys that have other brands of vehicles listed in their mini-bios under their name. Hmmmmm...

You should also mention how many people had any experience with "higher-end cars." The only reason I am on this forum is to see the pros/cons of the vehicle before I pull the trigger. I don't think that makes my post any less relevant to people who own FRS/BRZ as far as the purpose of "complaints" are concerned.

[Neziah]

You will find the same sort of complaints on any car forum. So nothing new here, that is the nature of manufacturing. Especially in a first year model.

[Mr. Mcoupe]

oh, I thought this was a forum to talk about the people that complain about the people that complain about the car.

[YinYang1980]

for alot of poeple here this car is their first brand new car or their first car at all, they dont know much about new car, of course they expect the most perfect car for the price they paid. if poeple dont complaint, HOW the manufacturer can improve? poeple work hard for their money, they have the right to complaint. i am one of those that dont tolerate bad product, not after i spend 32k(taxe and freight included here in quebec) of hard money on a car.

[Thunderchicken]

Originally Posted by regal

Well to be devils advocate, this is not an economy car. The 6spd 140 hp turbo 1.4 GM motor in the sonic econobox is beating the crap out of this car (with a tune) in a straight line for $10k less. That power train is amazing with ovr 40 mg hwy in a shitty chassis that weighs as much as the fr-s. If GM puts it in a small nible inexpensive IRS rwd, the fr-s loses big time. I don't understand the comparions to the genesis heavy weight, that is a big pony car that happens to be inexpensive since the Koreans make every thing from scrap (they make their own steel and casting!.)

Probably a lot of folks would have prefered an engine like this in the FR-s over the boxer which added alot of cost to the vehicle with the only main advatage being lower cog.

IOW's FR-S has great chassis, subarau boxer engine is choice may turn out to be a poor decision? Some may say the engine choice was a political/deav/favor choice not an engieering one. Its going to be very expensive to even gain 30 hP with this 12.5 c.r. engine. Limiting the hp was obviously a choice made to keep the gvt from requiring heavy safety reinforcement. A small powered turbo engine is a way around this red tape because aftermarket gains are inexspensive, creating enthusiasm. The boxer on the other hand is "locked in". Hopefully that will kep insurance rates down.

Don't take this the wrong way, but the point of the car isn't a straight line, it's a car you are suppose to enjoy driving and make up reasons to drive just that extra 15 miles to the grocery store that is on the other side of town when the closes one is 3 miles away.

Far as tuning of the FA20 or any N/A motor is very expensive, unlike turbo motors where you can just add a little more boost and lean out the tune and gain 10%. N/A motors require a bit more finesse with redesign of manifolds to headers, exhaust systems, intake systems, and tuning. Since this car is 2.0 litter it's not going to be a GM LSX, and a turbo isn't really an option when you are looking for driving dynamics, because of peakiness, and turbo lag which doesn't help with driving dynamics.

The motor has nothing to do with insurance rates, but how expensive it cost to repair after someone wraps it around a pole. Toyota / Subaru didn't limit the HP to 200 they designed it this way so the car can be controllable and rewarding when things are done right and not get too punished when things go wrong.

Basically what I'm saying is this car is for someone that really wants to learn to drive cause it allows you to feel what the car is doing. This car isn't for power junkies or speed freaks if that is what you are looking for; you have the Mazdaspeed 3, WRX, and Gen. 2.0T if HP and TQ is all you are looking for for the same price, but the driving dynamics are totally different.

The MazdaSpeed 3 has very neutral steering, but doesn't like to rotate and understeers when you approach the limits, has a very light throttle and revs quick, however has a fair amount of torque-steer when heavy on the throttle and very easy to get a speeding ticket.

The WRX is quick and has miles and miles of grip, but understeers when pushed too hard. The steering is a bit on the numb side, which makes it hard to feel when you get close to the edge. The ride is soft enough where it can be hard to tell how fast you are going and every easy get you in the triple digits and not know it unless you are listening to the exhaust note.

Gen. 2.0T don't know never owned or driven

[imravenit]

most people dont shit or grow money on trees.. 25k is 25k, 30k is 30k, a dollar is a dollar.. its hard to earn money and some people either work hard for there money or there fortunate to have alot of money to spend.. when you buy a brand new car you expect to drive a brand new car! a car that does not rattle and should be all intact, a car that has no engine or any drivetrain issues or whatsoever atleast for a certain amount of miles but people drive off the dealers with problems already and thats not acceptable!! no matter what and no exception how good of a package deal this car is.. people has the right to complain about any issue they want if its not within the standards of being a "BRAND NEW CAR" .. ive owned and still own old cars (1985-1987 toyota corolla gts a.k.a ae86) and up to these days i still drive them.. so jumping to this car i couldnt complain much.. just my 2 cents...

[Mr. Mcoupe]

Car has room to have woopie with girlfriend. Good enough for me.

[White64Goat]

Only if you let enough air out of her so you can both fit under the back window framing...................

[Touge Monster]

Hey I love the car does it have it's quirks yes quite frankly I find the squeaking windows to be extremely annoying but it usually goes away with the morning fog and by then I'm having so much fun driving it I don't care. Hell I've been to lazy to take it to the dealer about it and I work there lol. I've driven older cars I have a 85 GT-S hatch and a 92 MR2 turbo there are plenty of of creaks and noises and crap like that so for me the FR-S is like driving a Lexus comparatively speaking. I hope that Most of the people who buy this car are true enthusiasts and take it for the great vehicle it is but on the flip side there will be those that buy it solely for looks. I have customers come in with Yaris and complain about every little thing when people spend money regardless of how much it is they are going to feel entitled.

[Hanzo]

Originally Posted by FRSowner

This is a $25,000 car. In today's marketplace, that's 'bargain basement'. Too many people are complaining about poor quality stereo, no steering wheel controls, poor visibility, and other bullshit 'issues'. I think many of them would be better off selling their FR-S/BRZ and buying something that has better ergonomics and accouterments, like maybe a mini-van?

Seriously, many of you don't realize what a great package deal this vehicle is. I've owned MANY cars and unless something major pops up repeatedly on cars across the world like engine fires, crankshafts cracking in half, wheels falling off, etc., it's NOT a big deal at this price point. Rattles in the dashboard, speaker covers that don't stay attached, and other trivial stuff is just going to piss off the dealerships when people keep bugging them about it and take away their time and resources to deal with real problems. This car is NOT perfect. Little flaws like these should be taken care of by the owners.

If you want a top quality vehicle, spend the money and buy a $50,000+ priced car. This car was a vision and concessions were made to achieve the vision and still make it affordable. Yes, Toyota/Subaru probably pulled existing stuff off the shelf and fitted it to the car. Yes, they probably scrimped a little on the selection of materials to use. That's called cost-cutting measures. If they would have spent more on development, the car would have been priced significantly higher.

Legitimate problems should be addressed (taillight moisture, idling issues) but this 'the sky is falling' mentality because the driver can hear the differential whine at 85 mph really needs to be reeled in. Just my opinion.

I'm sorry but I don't agree. Price is not the issue, it's quality. My Honda Fit which cost $16 doesn't have rattles and speaker cover does not pop off. These are things Subaru/Scion want us to tell them so they know how to improve the car and fix issues.

[Brimford]

Originally Posted by Hanzo

I'm sorry but I don't agree. Price is not the issue, it's quality. My Honda Fit which cost $16 doesn't have rattles and speaker cover does not pop off. These are things Subaru/Scion want us to tell them so they know how to improve the car and fix issues.

Absolutely agree. My 07 TC when i bought it brand new did not have any rattles or squeaks, no idles dips, no "chirps" from unlubricated washers, and no weird as rattles in the engine bay at lower rpms. It was a solid built car.

It was 17k, and now im stepping up and spending more. I'm not asking for perfection at all. But silly issues that are falling through the cracks because the car was pushed out the door to get it on the street on time is something i can't excuse. Toyota/Subaru are going to lose a lot of time and money on people taking their cars to the dealerships and having to pay technicians to fix issues on a BRAND NEW CAR. This just seems very backwards behavior from a company who is trying to recover after the issues they had a few years ago.

I don't care if it's subaru or toyota quality, I bought a Scion, so I am looking at Toyota to make sure things are done right. I don't have time for the blame game.

I am wonderfully happy with the car, so don't take anything out of context btw! My whole family owns Toyota cars, so i expect a level of quality from them that I have always seen in the past.

[russv]

If you want read about real car complaints go to any Mini Cooper forum. You will be thankful for your car.

[FRSowner]

But price IS the issue. Toyota makes higher priced vehicles and has the whole Lexus line of 'high quality' cars.
Do you think they spend the same amount of R&D on Scion as they do Lexus?
Do you think they use the same quality of materials (specifically interior parts) on Scion as they do Lexus?
Do you think they use the same amount of sound insulation, vibration cancelling methods and padding/cushioning on Scion as they do Lexus?
The answer to all three is: No, they do not.
However, the A/C will blow just as cold in a Scion as it does in a Lexus. Air bags surround you and make you as safe in a Scion as a Lexus. The warranties between Scion and Lexus are not proportionate to their respective prices.
When you buy a Lexus, you are paying extra for the illusion of a better quality riding experience. It's quieter, smoother, and the dealership will kiss your ass until it blisters.
But the cars are built pretty much the same. A Lexus ES is just a little bit better than a Toyota Camry, but they're pretty much the same car but the ES *might* use better quality interior parts. The drivetrains are the same. The price however, is very different. They do have that prestigious 'Lexus' badging though...

Toyota could have built the FR-S to Lexus "quality standards" and it would be maybe slightly faster, definitely quieter, and the buying experience would have been very different. But would you pay an extra $20,000 for a Lexus FR-S?
I don't think many people would because this car is marketed to younger drivers (unlike myself) and they want you to buy a Toyota product over a Mustang, Camaro or other sporty marque/brand. They know you guys want a sporty affordable car that runs and handles well, looks cool, and can be modded. Most older drivers will be looking at cars that the seats are cushy because they have hemorrhoids, a big trunk for the golf clubs, and a usable back seat for the grandkids. They also want a car that gives the illusion of being SAFE. Most older drivers don't give a shit about 0 - 60 times or lateral G-force capability.

For the $25,000 price point, they did an admirable job. Yes, this car will have squeaks and rattles but if taken care of, I also bet it will last 200,000 miles without given the owner(s) too many serious problems. Just like a Lexus.

Like everything else, you get what you pay for. Buy a cheap car, get a cheap car. You want perceived quality, buy a more expensive car. Only you can decide if the extra money spent is being spent wisely on items that are important to YOU.

[Hanzo]

Like many other have said, expensive cars can have issues, cheaper cars can have issues, quality issues are not based on price. Look at the JD power and consumer report on quality. Volvo, VW, Mini, Land Rover, etc are always at the bottom.

I have no problem with the quality of material in the BRZ/FRS. What most of us have problem with are things that shouldn't happen to a brand new car regardless of price. If we bought the car obviously we are fine with what we paid for in terms of material. Like I said, price does not determined quality issue it determines cost of material used and content used. My friends Acura TL has more noise and rattle than my Honda Fit.

[Hanakuso]

None of us have an opinion because we didn't buy a Lexus LS600h or LFA

[YukiHachiRoku]

Originally Posted by FRSowner

This is a $25,000 car. In today's marketplace, that's 'bargain basement'. it's NOT a big deal at this price point.

Rattles in the dashboard, speaker covers that don't stay attached, and other trivial stuff is just going to piss off the dealerships when people keep bugging them about it and take away their time and resources to deal with real problems.

This car is NOT perfect. Little flaws like these should be taken care of by the owners.

Just my opinion.

$25,000 is a lot of money to me. A bargain basement is around $10~13K IMHO...

And, having owned nothing but Japanese imports my whole life I have a certain expectation for a brand new car, albiet first generation run or not. I've owned 2004 STi, and 2000 Honda Civic Si, both first gen's (maybe not body but engine and driveline, and some interior differences, but nonetheless they were flawless. I have not had to bring them to service for any warranty issues whatsoever... even all the used stuff I bought and ran hard never gave me issues... even a 7 year old 93' rotary rx-7...

Speaker grilles that pop out is not acceptable and I don't think I should have to bust my ass figuring out what the problem is. This is why I have a warranty and chose to buy a brand new car instead of an aging S2000, but I should have bought the SK2 because I know they are well made cars as I have sold them for Honda and have many friends who drive them. (but I didn't want to chance it on a used gamble with no warranty)

I work ridiculous hours and barely get to drive my car as it is. When I'm home I expect it to be in pristine condition and ready to roll with a smile on my face. It really busts my balls when I'm smiling and driving around but then when I glimpse at my speaker grille jacked all out of place it totally kills it for me.

Lol to the people telling me to duct tape/superglue/ or etc adhesives to pin the grille down. That is bullshit. Same goes for the cricket noise... I will be damned if I have to buy some lucas additive and figure out ratios at the gas station while worrying about some bottle of lubricant flying all over my car when I'm driving it like how it was supposed to be driven.

I know the car makes some wierd noises but I have gotten used to that, and accept them. That is fine. This new DI technology is a first for me. However, I do expect a high quality threshold of a product that was designed by Subaru/Toyota. It's 2013, a speaker grille is small potatoes, but it's a defect nonetheless.

(thanks for the member who pin-pointed the speakerwire harness as the culprit for not being pushed down far enough, I'll relay this to the service tech if it keeps happenning and if that isn't enough, I get a new dash, and if that is not enough, I will get a whole brand new car via Lemon Law)

/rant off, carry on

[fistpoint]

I totally disagree with your assessment. You're basically saying anything and everything under $25k is pure garbage, and that $25k itself is bargain basement quality? That is patently absurd. Squeaks and rattles because it's a $25k car? Again, absurd.

[YukiHachiRoku]

Originally Posted by FRSowner

In response to a few replies to my initial posting...

I've owned Porches past.

Did you stain that porche too? Was it in the front or backyard?...

stopped readying your 2nd reply here....