Next Gen BRZ/86!

[NoHaveMSG]

Originally Posted by rvoll

The key here is manufacturing economies. When Subaru makes the Twins, the added volume lowers per unit cost. The same would be true for a "cheap" Supra. All large car manufacturers try to leverage "platforms". Many times you can find a very wide price range for cars with the same platform. You may market the lower cost car with a different model name, but it would be the same platform. Toyota does this very well across their brands/models. I could easily see a low cost "Supra", or whatever they might call it, going for $35-40k with the high end Supra running $50-80k.

I am well aware of manufacturing economies. I was the production manager for a company for 8 years building 3 different lines of product. I don't think at the numbers that the new Supra and Z4 are going to be produced that it will come to favor them. I think a low end would be 45k and on the high end 65k.

The twins do share a lot of other Subaru chassis parts helping driving costs down.

They are after enthusiasts that put miles on their cars. Even at my wage and my cheap cost of living, I wouldn't be buying a new toy that was around 40K to thrash on back roads, or out on the track. Hell, at 30K you can buy a used Cayman.

[NCtoBRZ]

Originally Posted by Yoshoobaroo

The GT86 RC cut the price down to 1.9 millionYen from 2.41 million and lost 100 lbs compared to the base US model:
Steel wheels, unpainted bumpers, cheaper interior, no exhaust tips, etc. The dash trim is straight up missing 🤣




Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

Lol, so it dropped a bit over $4k to make it look like some kids backyard project... I don’t think that would help US sales

[rvoll]

Originally Posted by NoHaveMSG

I am well aware of manufacturing economies. I was the production manager for a company for 8 years building 3 different lines of product. I don't think at the numbers that the new Supra and Z4 are going to be produced that it will come to favor them. I think a low end would be 45k and on the high end 65k.

The twins do share a lot of other Subaru chassis parts helping driving costs down.

They are after enthusiasts that put miles on their cars. Even at my wage and my cheap cost of living, I wouldn't be buying a new toy that was around 40K to thrash on back roads, or out on the track. Hell, at 30K you can buy a used Cayman.

And I managed investments in plant and equipment and decided the proper ROI levels. Sharing chassis parts is no where near as important as amortizing the investment in new production lines. Basically, if they don't share the same platform, there is little you can do with shared parts because they can't be produced on the same line.

And like I said before, you are not the typical customer -- you are in the very small minority. I doubt whether more than 5% of owners of the twins do any mods at all or autocross or track the car. Porsches are the same. I owned Porsches for 27 years and know owners well.

[why?]

Originally Posted by rvoll

Then people like me would not have even considered the car and it would not come close to competing with the MX-5. I want a few creature comforts in the car. My guess is that well over half of the BRZ buyers are like me. The hard core enthusiasts, who would want a stripped down car, would be in the extreme minority. Remember, people who inhabit forums like this are the car nuts and not the vast majority of buyers.

You misread. They would keep the current car, and add a cheaper variant. Both because the car was meant to come out at $20k originally, and because that would help sales. I'll ignore your condescension for now.

Originally Posted by NCtoBRZ

What more do you think they could strip out compared to the base model twins (which are already pretty sparsely equipped compared to most any other car) that would make any significant difference in price? It’s not like they could ever make these cars cheap enough to compete on price with something like a base model civic.

Not strip out, replace. A bunch of parts are shared with their other cars, but not all of them. Wheels, brakes, everything down there can easily be changed for what is on the base impreza, just keep the suspension points the same so all the aftermarket stuff would still fit.

They could do the same throughout the car. Steering wheel, seats, stereo, etc. While they share a lot of parts with the other cars, there are some obvious ones that are just for the 86.

Also while the engine is nice, it is just a glorified impreza engine anyways. Not sure if that would lower costs though, but if it did just use the base impreza engine.

Basically they should just make a base version of the car, use all the least expensive parts they have to cut the price.

The Impreza starts at $18,495. Surely they could take enough cost out of the 86 to lower the price to $20k. The resulting car might be more of a commuter car than a sports car, but that is what a lot of the base cars use to be anyways.

[himbo]

Everyone keeps talking about the Supra like it will take production or development capacity from the twins, but remember, the Supra is in a different segment. The twins are in a segment that:

1) allows them to share many parts with other cars allowing for lower production costs, and;
2) will be sold at higher volumes due to the price point, and;
3) the Twin, though a niche car, are sold in a segment where the only true competitor, is the Miata. Yes, I know the price segment is competitive, but there may be just enough buyers to justify a new gen; a small lightweight SPORTS CAR (as opposed to a hi-po hatch or V6 pony car)

Sure, the Supra will share the platform with the new BMW Z roadster, helping bring down development and production costs, but is in a seriously competitive space (think $50-80k market for sports cars - Porsche, BMW, Nissan etc.).

I do hope the Twins go on for another generation, especially if they retain the magical NA, RWD, lightweight, low priced, two-door formula.

[NCtoBRZ]

Originally Posted by why?

Not strip out, replace. A bunch of parts are shared with their other cars, but not all of them. Wheels, brakes, everything down there can easily be changed for what is on the base impreza, just keep the suspension points the same so all the aftermarket stuff would still fit.

They could do the same throughout the car. Steering wheel, seats, stereo, etc. While they share a lot of parts with the other cars, there are some obvious ones that are just for the 86.

Also while the engine is nice, it is just a glorified impreza engine anyways. Not sure if that would lower costs though, but if it did just use the base impreza engine.

Basically they should just make a base version of the car, use all the least expensive parts they have to cut the price.

The Impreza starts at $18,495. Surely they could take enough cost out of the 86 to lower the price to $20k. The resulting car might be more of a commuter car than a sports car, but that is what a lot of the base cars use to be anyways.

Even replacing parts, there just isn’t the nearly $6k worth of savings needed to bring it to this magical $20k mark. The RWD layout and differences in the chassis and sheet metal account for a lot of the price difference over an Impreza. The interior is not any nicer (except the alcantara seats in the Limited trim) in the twins than an Impreza and the factory stereo in the twins is already garbage. For the smaller niche within what is already a niche market that would be satisfied with the 152 hp Impreza engine, I don’t think it would be worth the manufacturers time for the assembly line changes that would be need to install all of the alternative parts. Call it a glorified Impreza engine if you like, but it makes 53 more horsepower than in the Impreza... and too many people already complain about the 200-205 horsepower that the twins make now. We are all entitled to our opinions, but I just don’t think that swapping a few parts out for Impreza parts would lower the price enough or increase sales enough to matter when Toyota/Subaru never expected these cars to sale in mass volumes to begin with.

[wbradley]

If anything, I'd think Toyota and Subaru want to transition into a more equipped, more expensive vehicle to make a reasonable margin if possible. I see the new Toyota 86 is $29,995 base price in Canada. When it was a Scion the base was $26K in 2012 and only went up I think $400 in 4 years. In my mind this was a result of economy of scale, since the amortized cost of factory setup would have been mostly covered and the units need to keep moving to generate revenue. Now that we have a full-fledged Toyota, the general public doesn't need to be convinced of the Scion basic philosophy and will consider a more deluxe package.

I do realize there are many on this forum who will go on how the history of most sports cars is that they evolve into bloated overweight tubs in subsequent generations. In fact, though this doesn't appease the track junkie that strips his interior, it usually attracts more customers who didn't already purchase, provides an up sell to those that did, and typically generates better margin than a stripped down basic low price point vehicle. The first generation served to establish a following that will hopefully allow the manufacturer to benefit a bit more selling the 2nd generation.

The Supra cannot replace the twins, but will provide a nice up sell to people like myself who might transition to the next exciting vehicle. The step up will be considerable, so a higher level twin could fill the gap in between and also potentially sell in significant numbers.

There is a lot of benefit that a halo car can bring to a product lineup, such as helping sell $35K well equipped twins to those that admire but cannot spend $60K + on t Supra.

There will need to be certain similarities between the Supra and the next 86. Perhaps a "hot button" or two.

Yes I have been in sales a very very long time, beginning with new cars. lol

[rvoll]

Originally Posted by why?

You misread. They would keep the current car, and add a cheaper variant. Both because the car was meant to come out at $20k originally, and because that would help sales. I'll ignore your condescension for now.

Not strip out, replace. A bunch of parts are shared with their other cars, but not all of them. Wheels, brakes, everything down there can easily be changed for what is on the base impreza, just keep the suspension points the same so all the aftermarket stuff would still fit.

They could do the same throughout the car. Steering wheel, seats, stereo, etc. While they share a lot of parts with the other cars, there are some obvious ones that are just for the 86.

Also while the engine is nice, it is just a glorified impreza engine anyways. Not sure if that would lower costs though, but if it did just use the base impreza engine.

Basically they should just make a base version of the car, use all the least expensive parts they have to cut the price.

The Impreza starts at $18,495. Surely they could take enough cost out of the 86 to lower the price to $20k. The resulting car might be more of a commuter car than a sports car, but that is what a lot of the base cars use to be anyways.

No condescension here. I'm a car nut and have owned lots of cars and done lots of things to them. I'm just saying that the vast majority of people who buy ANY car want some creature comforts like power steering, comfortable seats, electric windows, air conditioning, a radio, bluetooth for phone, etc. These are things I removed for my track cars, but for my daily driver, I wouldn't buy a car without them. Other than that, what do your strip out of the BRZ? Tires? Wheels? There is not enough other stuff to make any real difference in price. And there is not enough volume to have significantly different models other that what they have. What you're saying just doesn't make any real world sense.

[NoHaveMSG]

I actually agree with @rvoll ^^^^^

Even my car being mostly a toy. I don't want to give up my stereo, ac, ect. I still have to drive it to the track. Up coming event is almost 8 hours away.

[Ganthrithor]

2.4 turbo four? Eww. Give me a 2.4 NA six with an absurd redline

[why?]

Originally Posted by rvoll

No condescension here. I'm a car nut and have owned lots of cars and done lots of things to them. I'm just saying that the vast majority of people who buy ANY car want some creature comforts like power steering, comfortable seats, electric windows, air conditioning, a radio, bluetooth for phone, etc. These are things I removed for my track cars, but for my daily driver, I wouldn't buy a car without them. Other than that, what do your strip out of the BRZ? Tires? Wheels? There is not enough other stuff to make any real difference in price. And there is not enough volume to have significantly different models other that what they have. What you're saying just doesn't make any real world sense.

that stuff is basic. I'd rather have more of those features, not less. What I'm talking about is the 86 only stuff that is probably more costly. We know the 86 has bigger brakes and wheels in the USA, but not overseas. That adds useless cost. The seats are different which is also silly. The steering wheel is different and things like that.

They can easily keep the current cars as is, and add in a lower cost version below it that removes the unique items and adds in as many part bin pieces from the higher volume selling Impreza. A lot of people wouldn't miss the fancy wheels, suspension, or BRZ only items in the interior. I hope the next gen if it is real uses the same chassis as the other cars too, as that will lower cost as well.

In my opinion the biggest problem the 86 has is price. When they were first developing it one of the big things was the cost was suppose to be $20k or less, and then the Japanese Yen went nuts and that was thrown out the window. A 200 hp car is not as big a deal at $20k than it is at $26k.

Originally Posted by NCtoBRZ

Even replacing parts, there just isn’t the nearly $6k worth of savings needed to bring it to this magical $20k mark. The RWD layout and differences in the chassis and sheet metal account for a lot of the price difference over an Impreza. The interior is not any nicer (except the alcantara seats in the Limited trim) in the twins than an Impreza and the factory stereo in the twins is already garbage. For the smaller niche within what is already a niche market that would be satisfied with the 152 hp Impreza engine, I don’t think it would be worth the manufacturers time for the assembly line changes that would be need to install all of the alternative parts. Call it a glorified Impreza engine if you like, but it makes 53 more horsepower than in the Impreza... and too many people already complain about the 200-205 horsepower that the twins make now. We are all entitled to our opinions, but I just don’t think that swapping a few parts out for Impreza parts would lower the price enough or increase sales enough to matter when Toyota/Subaru never expected these cars to sale in mass volumes to begin with.

That of course is the question. Only Subaru can answer that. 200 hp at $20k is better than 200 hp at $26k. And the interiors are similar, but not the same. The more exact same pieces that can be used the less expensive it can be.

[NCtoBRZ]

Originally Posted by why?

that stuff is basic. I'd rather have more of those features, not less. What I'm talking about is the 86 only stuff that is probably more costly. We know the 86 has bigger brakes and wheels in the USA, but not overseas. That adds useless cost. The seats are different which is also silly. The steering wheel is different and things like that.

They can easily keep the current cars as is, and add in a lower cost version below it that removes the unique items and adds in as many part bin pieces from the higher volume selling Impreza. A lot of people wouldn't miss the fancy wheels, suspension, or BRZ only items in the interior. I hope the next gen if it is real uses the same chassis as the other cars too, as that will lower cost as well.

In my opinion the biggest problem the 86 has is price. When they were first developing it one of the big things was the cost was suppose to be $20k or less, and then the Japanese Yen went nuts and that was thrown out the window. A 200 hp car is not as big a deal at $20k than it is at $26k.



That of course is the question. Only Subaru can answer that. 200 hp at $20k is better than 200 hp at $26k. And the interiors are similar, but not the same. The more exact same pieces that can be used the less expensive it can be.

And 200 hp at $15k would be even better... so? Everything that I said still applies... a factory $20k twin in the US just ain't hapenning.

[Lynxis]

I'll throw in my 2c worth of speculation.

I have a feeling they won't be able to make the next engine retain the 7400rpm redline and remain a global vehicle. As it was, they couldn't release the updated 2017 engine in certain markets due to issues meeting emissions standards in those markets. It seems all car models started after 2015 that have a redline above 7000 RPM are either available in limited markets or are in upscale vehicles to begin with. Even Honda, previously known for making high revving NA motors switched to making low revving turbo motors. I think even the new Civic Type-R only goes up to 7000 RPM. The new ND Miata remained NA but also lowered it's redline to a benign 6500.

I think it's impossible for this car to retain it's current position without being turbo in the next generation, expecting Civic SI numbers of around 210hp with 6500 redline and possibly the FA24 will be an option for 260hp.

[rvoll]

Originally Posted by why?

that stuff is basic. I'd rather have more of those features, not less. What I'm talking about is the 86 only stuff that is probably more costly. We know the 86 has bigger brakes and wheels in the USA, but not overseas. That adds useless cost. The seats are different which is also silly. The steering wheel is different and things like that.

Smaller brakes/wheels and lesser cost seats brings the price down about $400 max. The major upgrade cost are in the exact items you want more of. In fact, power seats alone would add at least $300 to the price. Again, what you're saying makes little sense. The only way to bring the price down is to produce as many Twins as Civics or Camrys. It is the limited production runs and lack of economy of scale that raises the price of the car. And current volumes are even lower than they've been in the past as performance CUV's continue to grow.