twins vs last gen cayman?

[86 South Africa]

Originally Posted by new2subaru

I think, I've finally decided to boost the Fr-s and you post this...

SC boost is instant
It’s turbos that generally have lag.

[WolfpackS2k]

Originally Posted by dowroa

Just remember to consider running and maintenance cost.

For example, for this same pricing, you can get a c5z06. In general, it is cheap to maintain. However, compared to a BRZ, the amount of oil used, clutch reservoir maintenance and 3x more expensive tires make the running costs far exceed the BRZ.

Also, while I don't have direct experience with the Cayman, I am going to assume the gearing per gear is very wide. This just means the experience you are going to get on the street is going to be very different. All the updated power you aren't really going to be able to use.... or be able to use legally for long. This is something you have to do beyond the honeymoon-phase to understand what the difference really means.

Good luck in your quest.

I can't stand the stock gearing of my 987S. All Boxsters/Caymans suffer from that problem. I think 2nd gear in the GT4 tops out around 85 mph. And then on the flip side 5th and 6th gears are kinda short.


At the last track event I went to I spent 70% of the time leaving it in 3rd gear. So boring.

[nikitopo]

Originally Posted by WolfpackS2k

I can't stand the stock gearing of my 987S. All Boxsters/Caymans suffer from that problem. I think 2nd gear in the GT4 tops out around 85 mph. And then on the flip side 5th and 6th gears are kinda short.


At the last track event I went to I spent 70% of the time leaving it in 3rd gear. So boring.

Their gearing is OK and quite similar to 86/BRZ, but they have a long final drive ratio for top speed. It is 3.89 ...

Not an easy task to have a car everywhere optimal and be able to hit 175 mph.

[WolfpackS2k]

Not sure why you think that. They're really not that similar.

Overall gear ratios (gear x final drive) for a BRZ (pre-2017) are as follows:

1st - 14.866:1
2nd - 8.97
3rd - 6.314
4th - 4.973
5th - 4.10
6th - 3.145

Same for 987 Cayman S:

1st - 12.84 (14% taller)
2nd - 7.57 (16% taller)
3rd - 5.47 (14% taller)
4th - 4.38
5th - 3.76
6th - 3.18

Only thing similar about the two cars are their top gears, and that means even the BRZ is geared for 170 mph. It also means the Cayman as a similarly high cruising engine speed, which isn't great for efficiency when that's a 3.4 liter engine lol .

There's a very simple explanation for why the Cayman's gearing is this tall - so that it's not competitive with the 911. For example, here's the 911's gearing from a year comparable to the above 987. Keeping in mind, that usually a more powerful car (i.e. this 911) has taller gearing:

1st - 13.45
2nd - 7.98
3rd - 5.366
4th - 4.403
5th - 3.715
6th - 3.027

It's quite obvious from comparing the 911 to the Cayman that the Cayman was intentionally given taller 1st and 2nd gears so as to not accelerate as fast (or faster) than a 911.

In fact just about all Cayman S/GTS's use identical ratios, even the Cayman GT4's gear ratios for 1-4 are actually identical to my own car's. Primary difference being the GT4's redline is 600 rpm higher.

Hope I didn't bore anyone with this post.

[perryair]

Originally Posted by dowroa

Just remember to consider running and maintenance cost.

For example, for this same pricing, you can get a c5z06. In general, it is cheap to maintain. However, compared to a BRZ, the amount of oil used, clutch reservoir maintenance and 3x more expensive tires make the running costs far exceed the BRZ.

Also, while I don't have direct experience with the Cayman, I am going to assume the gearing per gear is very wide. This just means the experience you are going to get on the street is going to be very different. All the updated power you aren't really going to be able to use.... or be able to use legally for long. This is something you have to do beyond the honeymoon-phase to understand what the difference really means.

Good luck in your quest.

ive definitely read about the wide gearing in porsches before, which would impact driving - but also with an almost 8k redline, i'd probably end up short shifting often on streets anyways. also another reason i'd look towards a base and not a 's' model, more power and usability of that power in non license threatening situations.

[funwheeldrive]

Originally Posted by WolfpackS2k

Hope I didn't bore anyone with this post.

Not exactly related, but after owning your Cayman would you ever own another 86, or has the Cayman made you never want to go back?

I probably would have bought a used Cayman a couple years ago if I didn't need to put a baby seat in my car. I still think about buying one though.

[dowroa]

Originally Posted by perryair

ive definitely read about the wide gearing in porsches before, which would impact driving - but also with an almost 8k redline, i'd probably end up short shifting often on streets anyways. also another reason i'd look towards a base and not a 's' model, more power and usability of that power in non license threatening situations.

I have thought about doing it before, but I would love to have a speed/gear/power graph for a car.

I think this would be better to show that, while you have more horse power, the effective horse power you have at certain speeds is mitigated by the gearing.

While the combined demonstration of acceleration or velocity/time may be more available, i think showing the metrics of available effective power is a better view of what you are sacrificing with more power by longer gearing. However, it should be noted this is why more torque would be more important at lower speeds, as those curves are generally flat.

Originally Posted by funwheeldrive

Not exactly related, but after owning your Cayman would you ever own another 86, or has the Cayman made you never want to go back?

I probably would have bought a used Cayman a couple years ago if I didn't need to put a baby seat in my car. I still think about buying one though.

I am not the requester, but I can tell you with a more powerful car (405hp/400tq) with almost equivalent gearing, yes, I do want to still have a shorter geared/lighter car experience in my life**.

** There are a lot more factors involved other than just metric performance for that reason, however.

[funwheeldrive]

Originally Posted by dowroa

I am not the requester, but I can tell you with a more powerful car (405hp/400tq) with almost equivalent gearing, yes, I do want to still have a shorter geared/lighter car experience in my life**.

** There are a lot more factors involved other than just metric performance for that reason, however.

Thanks, what are you driving now? Mustang?

[dowroa]

Originally Posted by funwheeldrive

Thanks, what are you driving now? Mustang?

Corvette C5 Z06 is one of the vehicles I have which I am making the comparison.

I am looking to sell another car and move into a BRZ with the performance pack or into an older BRZ.

I have a long history of Subarus, however (8+). None currently or directly with FR-S/BRZ other than co-drives. GC/GM6 RS owner ship I think is the most directly comparable.

[brzaapi]

Originally Posted by funwheeldrive

Not exactly related, but after owning your Cayman would you ever own another 86, or has the Cayman made you never want to go back?

I probably would have bought a used Cayman a couple years ago if I didn't need to put a baby seat in my car. I still think about buying one though.

I can't speak for Wolfpack, though we have both owned and tracked similar cars....but most certainly you may want to go back to a cheaper car, and you should not feel bad about it one bit.

It depends on what you want from a car, purpose, build, etc. I have owned 4 BRZs all in different configurations (not at the same time), and I have owned 5 different Cayman/Boxsters (again, not at the same time). Car buying is not a "financial" progression. Okay, it starts off that way....but I jump all over the place on the financial side of it. I pick platforms that I want to experience and give me an X-factor of some type. I have owned a GT4, its awesome....most capable care I have ever tracked. But, I still love to get into a 15 to 20k BRZ and rip on it. For a number of reasons. Do I dare say that I have more fun in Miatas,BRZs, S2000s than I do some of the Porsches. YEP, I can say that. Now...sometimes only a Porsche will do.

My comments may not make sense to some...probably the younger crowd. So let me put it this way....lets say the Porsche is a supermodel that you finally had a chance to date. Shes hot, makes you feel good, you may even love her....but she is expensive, and costly if things go wrong. Sex is good, but you don't get it very often (cause on the roads you cant exploit the P-cars very well) .....now there is the BRZ. The girl next door. Pretty, athletic, APPROACHABLE, and truly loves you without needing to empty your wallet.

I say experience both, as for which you prefer.....its personal taste...and I promise your taste will change and evolve. But, don't ever think that you should only move up the money ladder when buying cars. That's too boring.
A Porsche can do a lot of things that the BRZ can't, but the BRZ has great points to be made that a Porsche can't touch either.

Hoep that makes sense.

[funwheeldrive]

Originally Posted by brzaapi

Hope that makes sense.

Oh yeah, I totally get what you mean. I've driven/owned cars a lot faster than my FRS and I think a lot of my friends were confused when I bought one new. To them it looked like I was moving backwards when I could have bought an almost new Mustang GT or 335i for the same price. I've owned a lot of cars over the years and I could quickly tell that the 86 platform was something special in its own right.


But, I wasn't sure if the Cayman was basically a BRZ+. For example, I used to own a 1998 Neon ACR. It was loads of fun for what it was, and great to daily drive. A couple years later I found a bone stock 1999 GSR for sale and bought it. The Integra ruined the Neon for me. It was everything the ACR tried to be, and more. I wasn't sure if I would get a similar feeling if I ever bought a Cayman. Before I bought my FRS I rented an Elise for a week to see if I wanted one. Sure it was a blast, but I still picked the FRS at the end of the day. They similar cars, but completely different at the same time.


Thanks for your input. I have never driven a S2000 or Cayman, but they are on my bucket list of cars to drive for sure.

[WolfpackS2k]

I actually have considered making a switch back to the BRZ. I like the way it looks, love that it's slightly more practical, and I would feel less guilty racking up mileage on a BRZ. Shifting between gears is more enjoyable in the BRZ as well. But I really, really don't like the FA20 engine. The Cayman's flat six power and smoothness is addictive, and gets taken for granted of by me way more than it should.

I suppose that, ideally, if I found a well sorted BRZ that already had forced induction I would definitely consider it. In the near future I want to participate in more HPDEs and I think that would be easier to do with a BRZ than my older Cayman. I also sometimes think about going back to an S2000. Problem there is that I really don't fit in that car. To be comfortable in one I'd have to put in an aftermarket seat with lowered rails. And to track it I'd also have to install a rollbar, which if tall enough to protect me, would be too tall for the soft top to work. So it would basically be a hardtop only coupe at that point. Thus that's unlikely to happen.

And then there's my wildcard option, my unicorn. An LS swapped FD RX7...

All this though, is not to say I haven't enjoyed ownership of my Porsche. I love the looks, I love the handling, I love the power, and the steering directness and feel is out of this world! It's been relatively maintenance free, as I've only needed to have it at the dealership once over the last 4 years. Problem is, the car is now almost 12 years old and just a few thousand miles from cracking the 100,000 mile mark. I'm 95% certain the car is still on it's original clutch and that's a $3000 job at a shop (and I don't have the skill set for that work). And then the shocks and suspension bushings are starting to show their age...ugh.

IF (big IF) Honda came out with a new S2000 (that wasn't some hybrid-dual clutch transmission only powertrain) or Subaru came out with a turbo BRZ I would consider either very seriously as replacements for the Cayman.

[strat61caster]

Originally Posted by WolfpackS2k

And then there's my wildcard option, my unicorn. An LS swapped FD RX7...

LS swap 86? Take a modern chassis you like and solve the thing you don't like about it?

idk I feel like LS swapping an RX-7 is like having a prettier Corvette that was designed in the '80s, a C5+ should be better in every objective way provided the powertrains are equal. And before you say interior the FD is notorious for having an interior that hasn't held up, an FD with a nice interior is more of a unicorn than an LS swapped FD :P

[WolfpackS2k]

The FD is one of my favorite designs ever. Honestly I'd be perfectly happy with an FD with the original engine as well. The FD is one of the best handling cars ever built and the LS engine swap doesn't upset that balance much. Done properly you still have a car that's several hundred pounds lighter than a Corvette.