Stingray vs. Modified Twin

[Ultramaroon]

Originally Posted by Yardjass

The drivers where I live are, well, total jackasses.
...
So yes, it is important to me and it has to do with avoiding inconvenience, not with beating my chest because I'm faster than someone else.

Makes sense. I can see that being a thing.

I've driven a lot of shitboxes and in between, had a 240Z; also a shitbox but a labor of love. I observed a significantly greater number of assholes stepping up to the Z than even the FRS. Even then, it wasn't the predominant behavior in the Southwest. (NM, AZ, SoCal) Been many years since I lived on the East Coast but now that you mention it, I remember the mindset.

[Yardjass]

Originally Posted by Ultramaroon

Makes sense. I can see that being a thing.

I've driven a lot of shitboxes and in between, had a 240Z; also a shitbox but a labor of love. I observed a significantly greater number of assholes stepping up to the Z than even the FRS. Even then, it wasn't the predominant behavior in the Southwest. (NM, AZ, SoCal) Been many years since I lived on the East Coast but now that you mention it, I remember the mindset.

I don't think they're trying to race, TBH. Too many people around here are just self centered ****s. They have to be in front of you but once they've gotten there, they drive slow and hold you up. They'll be in such a hurry that they'll pull out right in front of you and make you slam on your brakes but then they'll proceed to drive slow. You know, because they were in such a hurry. They don't yield the passing lanes to faster traffic and they don't give people space to merge. I don't know what it is but this place is by far the worst I've ever been in the country for inconsiderate drivers, and I've been to a lot of places.

[funwheeldrive]

Originally Posted by Yardjass

I don't think they're trying to race, TBH. Too many people around here are just self centered ****s. They have to be in front of you but once they've gotten there, they drive slow and hold you up. They'll be in such a hurry that they'll pull out right in front of you and make you slam on your brakes but then they'll proceed to drive slow. You know, because they were in such a hurry. They don't yield the passing lanes to faster traffic and they don't give people space to merge. I don't know what it is but this place is by far the worst I've ever been in the country for inconsiderate drivers, and I've been to a lot of places.

Isn't Virginia terrible for speeding tickets also? I can't remember why I thought that.

[strat61caster]

Originally Posted by Yardjass

I don't think they're trying to race, TBH. Too many people around here are just self centered ****s.

Originally Posted by Yardjass

As a result of being stuck behind these cretins one too many times, I no longer tolerate this. I assume the worst and smoke them now.

Delicious.

Originally Posted by funwheeldrive

Isn't Virginia terrible for speeding tickets also? I can't remember why I thought that.

http://jalopnik.com/never-speed-in-v...-in-1613604053

[Phantobe]

Originally Posted by strat61caster

Mazda might pump out an attainable lightweight RWD coupe in a few years I think that's the safest bet at getting one, Honda has the S660 and Toyota's SFR looks like it will be real, but those are much smaller than the car we bought and it's a "yeah right" until they announce that they're coming here. Kia and Nissan played with concepts but those are definitely vaporware at this point. Fundamentally I agree, odds are slim there will ever be anything like this again. I think the bean counters at Toyota will win in shutting down a gen 2, or at least the direction of their "sports car" would change heavily not being a real 86 successor. After all, the AE86 is still being made, it's called a Corolla and it's very 'grounded to the ground'.

RX-8 is as close as it gets, 996 911's are the next best thing and aside from the IMS look like downright fantastic cars now that they're starting to drift well below $30k (hell there are a few <$15k examples out there if you're not picky), hopefully the 'eww watercooled' sentiment is in the majority for the next decade and they drop low enough to make maintenance costs easy to swallow and they can challenge Miata's for the go-to track car for those of us that like fixed roofs and a bit of space behind the drivers seat.

I was very excited about the Nissan concept, but thats dead in the water...the Kia one I didn't like the styling. The SFR looks pretty awesome I hope it comes to the US, but it'll probably just be more underpowered than the FR-S.

It's really a waiting game but its not really a big deal as I'm super happy with my FR-S, it would just be nice to have more options.

I just fail to see why Japanese automotive manufacturer's do not see the market for a car similar to the FR-S with a bunch more powwaaa.

[strat61caster]

Originally Posted by Phantobe

I just fail to see why Japanese automotive manufacturer's do not see the market for a car similar to the FR-S with a bunch more powwaaa.

Because they don't sell.

http://www.goodcarbadcar.net/2011/01...s-figures.html
http://www.goodcarbadcar.net/2011/01...s-figures.html

Yeah those numbers look ok, on par with Miata & 86, but the reality is that development costs are higher to make higher performance vehicles. They need to move more units to justify the design & manufacturing costs.

To make a car that competes with Mustang & Camaro ($30k-$40k budget) they need to sell Mustang & Camaro levels of units. Which are 3x-10x that of any Asian sports car.

http://www.goodcarbadcar.net/2011/01...s-figures.html
http://www.goodcarbadcar.net/2011/01...s-figures.html

Everyone else in that segment is able to spread costs across shared engineering (engines, chassis) or move a fuckton of units. STI, Pony Cars, Super Hot Hatches, all meet those criteria.

Asian companies don't make cheap high horsepower engines or have affordable RWD chassis so they've positioned themselves such that it is very very difficult to break into this niche. Nissan is the closest with their VQ truck engines and the Infinity chassis, but the numbers aren't inspiring, I doubt we'll see the continuation of the Z car as Renault drains what's left of Nissan.

[Re_Invention]

Originally Posted by Phantobe

I just fail to see why Japanese automotive manufacturer's do not see the market for a car similar to the FR-S with a bunch more powwaaa.

Price points dictate the volume. Not enough profit to pander to 'affordable' enthusiasts; people don't like driving that much anymore, especially not manuals and especially not in the age of emissions regulation and big manufacture taxation. We'll be seeing a lot more cross company collaboration and parts sharing for the blue collar budget. Not just the Japanese either:

Miata
Twins
Nissan 370Z
Civic SI

GTI
228i
Mini Cooper?

Hyundai Genesis Coupe

Mustang
Camaro
FiST
FoST

Abarth 500
124 Spider

Move up to $65,000 and you get into 'entry' cool stuff albeit second hand cars. Cars (and homes!) are expensive nowadays.. maybe they always have been and I'm just starting to notice. I wouldn't consider the really cool stuff until about $90k+ That's why cars like the Vette, 1LE, GT350, Scat Pack, etc. are kick ass! May not be your light weight fantastic chassis style but no one else is making 'em either. God bless America.

[Phantobe]

Originally Posted by strat61caster

Because they don't sell.

http://www.goodcarbadcar.net/2011/01...s-figures.html
http://www.goodcarbadcar.net/2011/01...s-figures.html

Yeah those numbers look ok, on par with Miata & 86, but the reality is that development costs are higher to make higher performance vehicles. They need to move more units to justify the design & manufacturing costs.

To make a car that competes with Mustang & Camaro ($30k-$40k budget) they need to sell Mustang & Camaro levels of units. Which are 3x-10x that of any Asian sports car.

http://www.goodcarbadcar.net/2011/01...s-figures.html
http://www.goodcarbadcar.net/2011/01...s-figures.html

Everyone else in that segment is able to spread costs across shared engineering (engines, chassis) or move a fuckton of units. STI, Pony Cars, Super Hot Hatches, all meet those criteria.

Asian companies don't make cheap high horsepower engines or have affordable RWD chassis so they've positioned themselves such that it is very very difficult to break into this niche. Nissan is the closest with their VQ truck engines and the Infinity chassis, but the numbers aren't inspiring, I doubt we'll see the continuation of the Z car as Renault drains what's left of Nissan.

That's just the North American market though, wouldn't there be a substantial appeal in Japan & other markets?

[strat61caster]

Originally Posted by Phantobe

That's just the North American market though, wouldn't there be a substantial appeal in Japan & other markets?

Well considering there are almost twice as many cars sold in the U.S. than Japan or any other first world country, there's a reason it's the focus for many manufacturers.

https://www.statista.com/statistics/...ted-countries/

The U.K. and Germany are super excited to get the Mustang, they're calling it a hit by moving ~27k units to Europe in a year according to this article, vs the >100k units they sold here over a similar period. (Which by the way makes it the best selling car over there)

http://europe.autonews.com/article/2...-is-paying-off

I can't speculate too heavily why the demand isn't there in other markets, other than broad strokes, other first world countries add additional tax on vehicles that use more fuel and/or have high emissions, turbo/supercharged, tax based on displacement etc. which makes high horsepower cars even more expensive than the US sticker price would allude to (not to mention much higher fuel costs). Add in the economic uncertainty and the current generation of Westerners in their 20's-30's are not doing as well as their parents it's no wonder it's not a great time for car sales. Oh, they also have functioning public transit that reduces the need for a vehicle.

After all, one of the reasons the 86 is a 2.0L is to be in a lower tax bracket in certain countries (Japan and Europe off the top of my head) and why a 2.2L or 2.5L from the factory won't happen.

For developing countries, China, India and Brazil primarily, the majority of the population does not have the wealth to afford a car like this, so that's a moot question. Most sales there are for super low end cars.

tl;dr Nobody buys more cars then 'murica, except those super cheap tin cans in 2nd world countries.

[Tcoat]

Originally Posted by strat61caster

Because they don't sell.

Yeah those numbers look ok, on par with Miata & 86, but the reality is that development costs are higher to make higher performance vehicles. They need to move more units to justify the design & manufacturing costs.

To make a car that competes with Mustang & Camaro ($30k-$40k budget) they need to sell Mustang & Camaro levels of units. Which are 3x-10x that of any Asian sports car.

Everyone else in that segment is able to spread costs across shared engineering (engines, chassis) or move a fuckton of units. STI, Pony Cars, Super Hot Hatches, all meet those criteria.

.

To add to this, for every single expensive to make, low profit (or even sold at a loss) performance level version of the top seller muscle cars built there are several thousand cheap to make, high profit, base models that hit the road. Yes, those base models are better then even just 15 years ago but they still use lower cost off the shelf parts and provide a very tidy profit margin. Contrary to popular belief the car companies do not make more money just because a car costs more. They make way more profit on each base 'Stang sold than they do on any of the top levels.

[Yardjass]

Originally Posted by funwheeldrive

Isn't Virginia terrible for speeding tickets also? I can't remember why I thought that.

I've been okay so far. 'knocks on wood'


The only thing I know of that's really stupid in VA is going over 80 is automatically considered reckless driving. They don't care if you're in a 35 zone or a 70.

Originally Posted by strat61caster

Because they don't sell.

http://www.goodcarbadcar.net/2011/01...s-figures.html
http://www.goodcarbadcar.net/2011/01...s-figures.html

Yeah those numbers look ok, on par with Miata & 86, but the reality is that development costs are higher to make higher performance vehicles. They need to move more units to justify the design & manufacturing costs.

To make a car that competes with Mustang & Camaro ($30k-$40k budget) they need to sell Mustang & Camaro levels of units. Which are 3x-10x that of any Asian sports car.

http://www.goodcarbadcar.net/2011/01...s-figures.html
http://www.goodcarbadcar.net/2011/01...s-figures.html

Everyone else in that segment is able to spread costs across shared engineering (engines, chassis) or move a fuckton of units. STI, Pony Cars, Super Hot Hatches, all meet those criteria.

Asian companies don't make cheap high horsepower engines or have affordable RWD chassis so they've positioned themselves such that it is very very difficult to break into this niche. Nissan is the closest with their VQ truck engines and the Infinity chassis, but the numbers aren't inspiring, I doubt we'll see the continuation of the Z car as Renault drains what's left of Nissan.

Honestly, our best bets are Mustang and Camaro themselves due to what you've just listed. Those aluminum V8's aren't particularly heavy and there has been a greater focus on reducing weight for fuel economy reasons. They've been cutting hundreds of pounds from them and I suspect it is partially due to the fact that they simply didn't bother to spend the time/money/effort to do this back when fuel economy wasn't a big deal. Heck, even the new VW Golf platform cut over 200 lbs and that isn't even a large car. I know they'll never get sub-3000 lbs or anywhere near an 86 but I think if they could cut a few hundred pounds more from them, I'd be seriously looking as a buyer.

[DarkSunrise]

Originally Posted by Yardjass

Honestly, our best bets are Mustang and Camaro themselves due to what you've just listed. Those aluminum V8's aren't particularly heavy and there has been a greater focus on reducing weight for fuel economy reasons. They've been cutting hundreds of pounds from them and I suspect it is partially due to the fact that they simply didn't bother to spend the time/money/effort to do this back when fuel economy wasn't a big deal.

Chevy claims the new Camaro 1SS lost 223 lbs vs. the old model. Yet it still somehow manages to weigh 3760 lbs, or 1,000 lbs more than an FR-S/BRZ

Like you said, the LT1 engine is relatively light. I think the problem is that the Alpha platform (while pretty good overall) is just too heavy, being designed to scale up for cars as large as the CTS, and scale down for cars like the Camaro. As long as future Camaro models are going to platform share with the CTS, I think they'll always be on the wrong end of 3500 lbs.

I've grown to like Camaros/Mustangs as they are though and am actually considering a Camaro SS 1LE or possibly Mustang GT PP as my next DD. Fun in a different way!

[Tcoat]

Originally Posted by DarkSunrise

I've grown to like Camaros/Mustangs as they are though and am actually considering a Camaro SS 1LE or possibly Mustang GT PP as my next DD. Fun in a different way!

I have driven both the top (Canadian) package level Camaro and Mustang and they have come many miles in the last few years. Would I want one for daily driving? No, they are just plain silly powerful for what I would need. Make a fun weekend car or be fine as a DD for somebody that doesn't commute long distances or get stuck in traffic everyday though.

[DarkSunrise]

Originally Posted by Tcoat

I have driven both the top (Canadian) package level Camaro and Mustang and they have come many miles in the last few years. Would I want one for daily driving? No, they are just plain silly powerful for what I would need. Make a fun weekend car or be fine as a DD for somebody that doesn't commute long distances or get stuck in traffic everyday though.

Oh it'd definitely be complete overkill for me as a DD too Would be a completely irrational (but fun) purchase lol. Luckily I've got a short commute.