BRZ vs S2000 vs Cayman S (my take)

[Re~Mix]

Excellent review of the cars in the title as I have owned or extensively driven all of them. My only word of advice to potential buyers is to get out and test drive the car, multiple times. Ideally test drive a few others near your budget as well, you never know how things will stack up in the real world.

I have been a Porsche fanboy for much too long and envisioned my FR-S replacement to be a 987.1/2 Cayman S, to the point where I was engaging listings and owners for 3 months. After driving the Cayman S, 911 and other cars back-to-back the Cayman was a little underwhelming (to me) and the 911 too expensive. In any event, I got behind the wheel of a Z4M and the rest was history. The proper mix of character, power, street presence and track capability I was looking for (at a nice price )

Originally Posted by brzaapi

Also, I agree about the Z4M being a harsher ride than the BRZ...but your wife may not mind it so much in that car.

It's definitely stiff, although nearly everyone installs coil-overs. No harsher than the twins

[mhughett]

It's definitely stiff, although nearly everyone installs coil-overs. No harsher than the twins[/QUOTE]



I owned a Z4M coupe for 3 years so I think I have a pretty good idea of their pro's and con's. While it is certainly more powerful than the twins, it is also about 400 lbs. heavier. The S54 engine was designed about 15 years ago and required very expensive valve adjustments every 40-50k miles. It is also a little bit of a gas-hog with EPA ratings of 15-22. I took it to the track a couple of times and it's a little scary at times. I found the BRZ to be much more predictable and easier to throw into corners without worrying about the ass-end of the car coming around when you least expect it. Contrary to the quote above, I thought the ride was more firm and jittery on the highway than the twins.
On the interior, the gauges seem out of place and cheap compared to the rest of the car. The trunk space is tight and there is no rear seat to fold down to expand its space. Nappa Leather seats are nice but the twins seats were much more supportive.
In summary, I think the Z4M coupe is one of the best looking cars BMW has ever done but I haven't looked back since selling it nearly 3 years ago. While the BRZ doesn't have the panache of the BMW, I think it is more fun to drive on a day-in, day out basis. I had a run of BMW's that lasted nearly 30 years that ended with the Z4M and now that they've gone to heavier and even more powerful cars, they may have a hard time getting me to come back.

[nikitopo]

Originally Posted by mhughett

Contrary to the quote above, I thought the ride was more firm and jittery on the highway than the twins.

Our cars have an updated suspension which gives a more planted and smoother ride. Overall, an improvement that you can find also in medium-to-high end coilovers. The twins before MY14 had a much more firm and jittery drive. Most drivers have still an experience from the earlier cars.

[mhughett]

This discussion got me thinking more about the Z4M. It is still a sharp looking car even though the interior is a little blah.

[LOLS2K]

While we're on the topic

[Re~Mix]

Originally Posted by mhughett

The S54 engine was designed about 15 years ago and required very expensive valve adjustments every 40-50k miles. It is also a little bit of a gas-hog with EPA ratings of 15-22. I took it to the track a couple of times and it's a little scary at times. I found the BRZ to be much more predictable and easier to throw into corners without worrying about the ass-end of the car coming around when you least expect it.

It would be daft to imply the S54 is a lesser engine or less engaging than the FA20. It exudes nearly double the HP/tq and has more character (history too) than the FRS power-plant, plus a higher redline. Yes, its an old BMW with a more expensive price tag and thereby maintenance costs. It's scarier on the track because things approach at much higher speeds, period. I will agree that the FR-S seating position and neutral balance boosts driver confidence, still getting used the wayyy back position of the /M.

Originally Posted by mhughett

On the interior, the gauges seem out of place and cheap compared to the rest of the car. The trunk space is tight and there is no rear seat to fold down to expand its space. Nappa Leather seats are nice but the twins seats were much more supportive.
In summary, I think the Z4M coupe is one of the best looking cars BMW has ever done but I haven't looked back since selling it nearly 3 years ago. While the BRZ doesn't have the panache of the BMW, I think it is more fun to drive on a day-in, day out basis.

Spot on with the gauges, the stack layout on the FR-S/BRZ is better. The seats are body type dependent, but I don't find either to be an issue.

As a daily-driver its a lot more fun than my FR-S, I will admit that the FR-S was easier to row through the gears at legal speeds. As with any older performance car, you'll give up some of the modern comforts and cheap maintenance of the FRS

[BoulderGeek]

Hey, First post, if it lets me!

Thanks to WolfpackS2k for this thread. I am one of those people who has been doing this dance, going back and forth for months.

I currently have a normally aspirated base Porsche 944, with lots of suspension upgrades and everything is in pretty good trim. I can run it hard, lots of rubber o-rings and seals have been replaced in the last year. Intake, AOS, injectors, vacuum hoses, filters, fluids, etc. AC blows colder than my Volvo XC70, and the stereo is magnificent.

But, the car is 30 years old. Though I have only had it for a year, and have done a lot to it (clutch also only has 50,000 miles on it, WP and belts only 5,000), i have this unfounded fear that it will leave me sitting and that I shouldn't really trust it. i use my XC70 for Colorado snow, camping and general purpose commuting. But, I take the 944 out whenever the road conditions and task warrant it. 25 miles commute on twisty back roads, every day.

I have been test driving used 911s and Caymans in the $25K-and-less category, for about six months. If I were to get a Cayman, I am thinking it would be a 2009 Base this time next year. Drive the 944 into the summer and sell it before the snow flies. Then, be in negotiating position in the dead of winter when RWD cars aren't moving.

I am only six feet tall, but truthfully, a 911 or 944 interior, with the rear jump seats, is more useful and comfortable to me than the Cayman's firewall behind my seat. The Cayman handles great, but doesn't seem as useful, even as a commuter and not a Home Depot car. I don't need a lot of power, though a 295BHP Cayman S does feel pretty snappy, compared to my 140BHP 944.

$24,000 for a base 2009 Cayman with 265BHP. $24,000 for a 2006-08 Cayman S with potential IMS issues and older everything. Or, $19,000 for a used BRZ, and perhaps a $4000 supercharger in the future, when it gets boring?

I'll be turning 50 next year, and really want to reward myself with a nice Porsche. And then the compromises and adult reality sets in, and makes me think, "If I am mistrusting of my 944 for reliability, wouldn't a 2013/14 BRZ be better than a no-warranty Cayman?"

[MightyMeeple]

Originally Posted by BoulderGeek

Hey, First post, if it lets me!

Thanks to WolfpackS2k for this thread. I am one of those people who has been doing this dance, going back and forth for months.

I currently have a normally aspirated base Porsche 944, with lots of suspension upgrades and everything is in pretty good trim. I can run it hard, lots of rubber o-rings and seals have been replaced in the last year. Intake, AOS, injectors, vacuum hoses, filters, fluids, etc. AC blows colder than my Volvo XC70, and the stereo is magnificent.

But, the car is 30 years old. Though I have only had it for a year, and have done a lot to it (clutch also only has 50,000 miles on it, WP and belts only 5,000), i have this unfounded fear that it will leave me sitting and that I shouldn't really trust it. i use my XC70 for Colorado snow, camping and general purpose commuting. But, I take the 944 out whenever the road conditions and task warrant it. 25 miles commute on twisty back roads, every day.

I have been test driving used 911s and Caymans in the $25K-and-less category, for about six months. If I were to get a Cayman, I am thinking it would be a 2009 Base this time next year. Drive the 944 into the summer and sell it before the snow flies. Then, be in negotiating position in the dead of winter when RWD cars aren't moving.

I am only six feet tall, but truthfully, a 911 or 944 interior, with the rear jump seats, is more useful and comfortable to me than the Cayman's firewall behind my seat. The Cayman handles great, but doesn't seem as useful, even as a commuter and not a Home Depot car. I don't need a lot of power, though a 295BHP Cayman S does feel pretty snappy, compared to my 140BHP 944.

$24,000 for a base 2009 Cayman with 265BHP. $24,000 for a 2006-08 Cayman S with potential IMS issues and older everything. Or, $19,000 for a used BRZ, and perhaps a $4000 supercharger in the future, when it gets boring?

I'll be turning 50 next year, and really want to reward myself with a nice Porsche. And then the compromises and adult reality sets in, and makes me think, "If I am mistrusting of my 944 for reliability, wouldn't a 2013/14 BRZ be better than a no-warranty Cayman?"

Welcome to the forums and for sharing your situation. My first question to you is could you sell the 944 and come out ahead (after all you've already put into the car)? If the answer is yes, then I think selling it is a no-brainer. As to what to replace it with, compelling to go either way. If you've driven a BRZ and are okay with the power, then I think it's a smarter move from a cost to own perspective. The aftermarket scene is already very good and will hopefully continue to blossom (assuming they keep making the twins), so adding performance mods is very much easier/cheaper to do than with a German car.

I'm coming up on my 3 year anniversary with my BRZ and it has been rock solid from a reliability/fun factor.

[BoulderGeek]

Cool, thanks for that feedback @MightyMeeple.

I am slightly shy of $8000 in my 944 and would likely only get $5500-5800 back. But, I have learned a lot, and can continue to drive it happily until I decide what the next phase is.

I tend to think that it costs about $2000 a year no matter what you drive. Depreciation or unexpected repairs, it all costs. I frontloaded the maintenance on my 944, and everything is pretty strong right now. But, in another two years, the belts will need to be done again.

There is this constant war in my head between no-compromise and compromise. I really don't want to work on my play car all of the time. Much prefer actually going out and playing. I have a "sensible" car (with a lot of turbo and ECU mods, suspension, etc) that is fun to drive and very useful. But automatic and huge. I want a small, flickable, manual canyon carver that two people can go downtown in and be sophisticated as well as sporty. And not hit me with $5000 repair bills.

250BHP supercharged would be fine with me, along with some suspension upgrades. Would I worry less about repairs and cost of ownership in a BRZ than in a 2007 Cayman?

Guess I should drive a few.

[MightyMeeple]

@BoulderGeek ....I've never owned a Porsche, but reading the beginning of this thread and logistically, I think it's safe to assume ownership/maintenance of a BRZ will be quite a bit less than a used Porsche.

Sounds like you haven't test driven yet...hehehehe...go do it and your mind might get made up rather quickly. It's so much fun to drive, particularly on the twisties.

Looking forward to hearing your impressions.

[RichardsFRS]

Porsches are awesome but Cayman only had 275 360 hp? Depending on the model. Seems like a lot of money but it is a driving car

[BoulderGeek]

I couldn't help myself, and took my lunch hour to go to our Subaru dealership. They had a BRZ in metallic charcoal which looked great. Since our roads are ice covered right now, I didn't want to take a test drive. Plus, this unit was auto and that wouldn't interest me. But, I wanted to feel the ergos and interior.

Size-wise, the interior feels nearly identical to the 944 (and a 911). Rear C-pillar visibility is worse in the BRZ. No offense intended, but even coming from my all-plastic 944 interior, the BRZ felt cheap inside. The flimsy headliner and door panels were surprisingly insubstantial.

Steering wheel, gauge cluster and shifter placement were all very good. There is a lot I could like about the BRZ, and the exterior is lovely. The fender flares are similar to the 944, but not as pronounced. Just revving the motor, it feels puny compared to the 2.5L I4 of the 944, even though the BRZ has 60 more HP.

I'll have to drive one, when the conditions support it.

[dhuang]

Originally Posted by BoulderGeek

I'll be turning 50 next year, and really want to reward myself with a nice Porsche. And then the compromises and adult reality sets in, and makes me think, "If I am mistrusting of my 944 for reliability, wouldn't a 2013/14 BRZ be better than a no-warranty Cayman?"

From the sound of it, the Porsche is the best choice for you.

IMS issues are grossly exaggerated with the Cayman 987 platform, especially as the MY's go on. They've been improving on the IMS after 2006 until they eliminated it altogether in 2009.

Maybe a 09+ Cayman would fit the bill. They really are sublime vehicles. I've never felt more confidence than behind the wheel of a Cayman. I would have gotten one, but I do use the rear seats in the 86 from time to time. The GT4 is next on the list for me!

[Gaiakai]

@WolfpackS2k I have to thank you for this post. I've read it over multiple times and ultimately helped in my decision to get a 987 instead of supercharging my BRZ. Your impressions and breakdown are spot on sir



Obligatory whoring of my new (to me) car, with a Boxster parking buddy I found at work: