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Old 06-17-2010, 03:13 AM   #141
Dimman
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Originally Posted by vh_supra26 View Post
I believe two of those concepts have the geenlight. Anyways, hate it or love it. Toyota is working on a hybrid sport car. So when it comes down to it, FT-HS or MR-2 hybrid.

I have a MK4.
It may sound like I've been ripping on Toyota but I really love the company. I just expect so much more from them. It just seem that with their last major international motorsports failures (LeMans with the incredible-looking GT-One, and of course F1) that they're throwing out all of their performance history. Coming in second but being able to say your car is more environmentally friendly, as good as that may feel to some, is not the same as winning. And never will be.

The Supra's official motorsports heritage may not be on the same level as the Corolla or Celica's WRC victories but from a grassroots drag-racing it is un-paralleled. As a Mk4 owner, I'm sure there is no need for me to list the accolades of your car, in various states of tune, in many different events. The Supra is a legendary street performance machine. But that statement may have to be changed to: The Supra was a historical street performance machine.

And that sucks...
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Old 06-17-2010, 03:20 AM   #142
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Toyota is doing good in my book. At least they are getting back in sport cars game. Why don't you hate on Honda and their CR-Z, can't forget about the ugly Acura line up. Well I'm off to bed...
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Old 06-17-2010, 09:42 AM   #143
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In that run your extra $300k gets you a 0.2sec and 3mph trap?

Should I have used the 1/3 of the LFA's price ZR1 as my example instead?

Add a few grand to the GTR and it kills the Toyota. What can you do with the carbon-shell, computer-controlled sequential transmission, rev-happy V10 for $5000? Have the dealer change the spark plugs?

It only sold out due to its low volume and speculation. Compare it to something it would be competitive with from a price and purpose standpoint like the $320k Ferrari 599 GTB Fiorano F1 and you're looking at 11.2@129.3. The Ferrari is faster, better looking (subjective, but whatever...) and cheaper than the Toyota. It's a novelty car.

Here are a couple 'slow' drag Supras (Mk3s). White car is a street car (full interior but running on slicks here) with a 7MGTE, big turbo, etc... Blue car is 2JZGTE swapped, big turbo etc... also on slicks.



The same blue car earlier on a better track:



Both were built for less than the cost of a new GTR.

Seriously, shut the fuck up.

A few grand in an evo would slaughter a GT-R, so really, you have no point whatsoever. One day when you grow up, you will learn that the measure of a great car is not only in it's 0-60 and 1/4 mile times. When you cross the barrier to below 4 seconds 0-60, a lot of money will make very little difference. There are many cars out there that will make cars 4x-6x more expensive seem slow, eg, ZR1, Viper ACR, but then there are reasons why these cars sell for $100k vs the price of say a ferrari or lamborghini... and indeed, the LFA.
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Old 06-17-2010, 10:28 AM   #144
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& Matador's rage continues...

As for me, I'm not raging that much yet. It's true that few/many grand more than you can make any car into supercar beater... but at the same time, that will void the warranty. If I was rich enough to buy GT-R, LFA, 599 GTO, Reventon and all other supercars I wouldn't void the warranty at all. I'll buy more lower price tag FR car and fully tune it instead... but that's just me.

Like Matador said, great car isn't measure only by 0~60 and 1/4. If you check Nurburgring time rec, GT-R is 7:51 while LFA is 7:24. Now, that's big difference with amazing rec. Here are few other well known supercar's rec that is slower than LFA. Note: Not tuned ones, but only stock ones
Maserati MC12 - 7:24.29
Ferrari Enzo - 7:25
Chevrolet Corvette ZR1 - 7:24
Nissan GT-R V-Spec - 7:26
Pagani Zonda F Clubsport - 7:27
Porsche Carrera GT - 7:28
Koenigsegg CCX 7:33
Mercedes SL 63 AMG Black Series - 7:36
.
.
.
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2011 Subaru Impreza WRX STI Sedan - 7:55
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.
.
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My car - 20mins along with crashed everywhere...
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Old 06-17-2010, 01:24 PM   #145
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I'd buy an LFA if I were super rich. I love how it looks, I love how it sounds, I love the interior, I love the car. Is it worth the 400,000 price tag? I dunno how expensive it is to use 1 of only 2 Laser Monitored Circular Looms.. I'm sure that use time doesn't come cheap, and there are obvious benefits to using it.

Carbon fiber everything - It has brakes powerful enough to stop the earths rotation. More scoops, wings and aerodynamic doo-dads than a fighter plane. Because the LFA will rev from idle to redline in just over half a second, a conventional analog tachometer simply would not react quickly enough. Over 65% of the car is made of Carbon fiber reinforced polymer.

I dunno, I think I'd pay ever penny and smile as I tore off into the setting sun.
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Anyway, as i was saying, "speed is expensive, how fast are you willing to spend?"
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Old 06-17-2010, 02:06 PM   #146
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Couldn't agree with Matador more...

Dimman, I would quote everything you've said here and start responding... but it would take all day. Just stop.
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Old 06-17-2010, 02:20 PM   #147
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Am I the only one who doesnt like the looks or interior of the LFA?

Hell the FT-HS only looks good from the side to be honest.

And matador, your the man
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Old 06-17-2010, 02:35 PM   #148
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Am I the only one who doesnt like the looks or interior of the LFA?

Hell the FT-HS only looks good from the side to be honest.

And matador, your the man
I like the LFA's interior.

I agreed I love the side view. I also like the rear.




But the front end does look a little funny, especially if you're looking straight at it. I think think it just needs to be refine a bit. Maybe a new front bumper, hood, and headlights.

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Old 06-17-2010, 08:30 PM   #149
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Originally Posted by MatadorRacing_F1 View Post
Seriously, shut the fuck up.

A few grand in an evo would slaughter a GT-R, so really, you have no point whatsoever. One day when you grow up, you will learn that the measure of a great car is not only in it's 0-60 and 1/4 mile times. When you cross the barrier to below 4 seconds 0-60, a lot of money will make very little difference. There are many cars out there that will make cars 4x-6x more expensive seem slow, eg, ZR1, Viper ACR, but then there are reasons why these cars sell for $100k vs the price of say a ferrari or lamborghini... and indeed, the LFA.
Seriously? You grant me a STFU? Oh boy...

We're talking about a mythical future Supra here. And the LFA comparison to the GTR is completely justified. The GTR would be this mythical Supra's traditional rival. And if Toyota is putting out this expensive beast as the best they can do... Well to me it's not good enough.

If you look into the development history of the LFA there are problems. It started 9 years ago. The original project was likely going to be an ACTUAL Supra successor. It was run by Toyota as opposed to Lexus and was going to have an aluminum spaceframe and V8 powerplant (Likely what made its way into the ISF). When it changed over to Lexus some marketing guru likely decided to tie in the car to Toyota's F1 experiment. And that led to the carbon monocoque, V10 and SM transmission (as opposed to a dual clutch).

The V10 was supposed to be as light as a V8 and as compact as a V6. Excellent idea. Power is more than respectable at 552 bhp at 8200 rpm. Good number. And the talk of response etc... sounds great. But its torque peak is only 354 lb-ft at a very high 6800 rpm. Separation of only 1900 rpm from peak torque to peak power is not good. Compare it to the smaller, less powerful F430's 4.3 V8 that makes 343 lb-ft at 5250 and 490 bhp at 8500. 3250 rpm separating them. That means a much more flexible, nicer to drive engine. It's not just about peak numbers and Toyota knows this. When they redesigned the 1JZGTE they kept the power level the same but dropped the torque peak rpm from 4800 to 2400 at the same time as increasing the torque peak output by about 12 lb-ft. The only reason I can think of making the V10 so peaky is to replicate an F1 type experience. But it's not something that is actually useful to a good driving car. Every driver, even the super awesome ones, are well served by a good torque curve. 354 lb-ft at 6800 rpm doesn't say that to me.

The other major change was going to the carbon tub. Fine. Lighter, more rigid, great. But for all the cost of this thing it weighs in at 3263 lbs. Maybe 200 lbs less than the all steel unit body Mk4 Supra. This is not an exclusive fault of the LFA, as almost all cars are getting fatter as time progresses (noted exception another Nissan, 370Z vs 350Z). It just irks me that Toyota's super, all carbon, car with carbon ceramic brakes weighs within a very reasonable reach of my Mk3 Supra. I would wager I'm pretty close to it now actually (not that I'll ever hit its front/rear balance).

Then the single automated clutch sequential. I've never driven one, but heard nothing but bad things about them. This one is supposed to be the best. But almost ALL the dual clutches are better.

As for it being faster around the 'Ring. I would hope it is. It's got less weight, more power, better balance and more tire. It also costs a LOT more. Toyota is the biggest, and in my opinion best, car maker in the world. I bought a crap-load of the magazines when the LFA came out. I was disappointed. It was not the ultimate supercar I was expecting it to be. When the GTR came out it dominated everything that was anywhere close to being its competition. I was expecting the LFA to do the Lambo's, Ferraris, Carrera GTs, what the GTR did to Z06's and Porsche Turbos. It didn't.

Instead it came with talk of driving philosophy that sounded like pro-active excuse making and how they acoustically tuned the cabin with sound chambers to pick up the sound of the motor. Get over yourselves Toyota. It's not like you made the perfect driver's car. You made a $375k compromise. And there are better ones out there.

PS: One of the reasons the LFA's commanded the money was simple rarity and speculation. 500 is a very exclusive number.
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Old 06-17-2010, 08:36 PM   #150
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Originally Posted by Siriusly.Andrew View Post
I'd buy an LFA if I were super rich. I love how it looks, I love how it sounds, I love the interior, I love the car. Is it worth the 400,000 price tag? I dunno how expensive it is to use 1 of only 2 Laser Monitored Circular Looms.. I'm sure that use time doesn't come cheap, and there are obvious benefits to using it.
On a un-ranty side note, does anyone here know that looms and weaving is where Toyota originated from?
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Old 06-17-2010, 09:38 PM   #151
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The V10 was supposed to be as light as a V8 and as compact as a V6. Excellent idea. Power is more than respectable at 552 bhp at 8200 rpm. Good number. And the talk of response etc... sounds great. But its torque peak is only 354 lb-ft at a very high 6800 rpm. Separation of only 1900 rpm from peak torque to peak power is not good. Compare it to the smaller, less powerful F430's 4.3 V8 that makes 343 lb-ft at 5250 and 490 bhp at 8500. 3250 rpm separating them. That means a much more flexible, nicer to drive engine. It's not just about peak numbers and Toyota knows this. When they redesigned the 1JZGTE they kept the power level the same but dropped the torque peak rpm from 4800 to 2400 at the same time as increasing the torque peak output by about 12 lb-ft. The only reason I can think of making the V10 so peaky is to replicate an F1 type experience. But it's not something that is actually useful to a good driving car. Every driver, even the super awesome ones, are well served by a good torque curve. 354 lb-ft at 6800 rpm doesn't say that to me.
Lamborghini Gallardo has 376 lb-tq @ 4250~4500rpm (5L, not 5.2L). Is that good enough?
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Old 06-17-2010, 09:45 PM   #152
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Lamborghini Gallardo has 376 lb-tq @ 4250~4500rpm (5L, not 5.2L). Is that good enough?
Better example than mine. Closer displacement, same number of cylinders. More torque + lower rpm = better.
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Old 06-17-2010, 09:57 PM   #153
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I remeber when they 1st showed the LF-A in 2005. Didn't like it that much; the headlights looked out of place.





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Old 06-17-2010, 10:19 PM   #154
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I remeber when they 1st showed the LF-A in 2005. Didn't like it that much; the headlights looked out of place.
]
Headlights can make or break a car's 'face'. I always see them as 'eyes'. That was my only gripe with the Mk4 Supra, it looked 'sad' or 'empty' and with the grille vaguely catfish-like. Compare it to the lights of the production LFA which looks 'angry'. I would rather my performance car look pissed off than depressed.

Another tangent: The concept's rear shows some crazy aero ideas. Full tunnels, and fans to blow out more of the rear's low pressure. Sick.
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