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Old 01-31-2017, 01:52 PM   #113
gravitylover
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Too lazy to read through the thread but if it was me I think I'd be looking for an F Type.
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Old 01-31-2017, 03:57 PM   #114
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Bingo regarding the 370z taking the entry sports coupe position. Porsche has recently gone on record saying (which can change tomorrow) they won't consider anything below the Boxster, $60k+ OTD, at the moment. And that makes sense given the size of production, consumer demands and profit margins. They are so immensely profitable because they get away with charging so much for their products. It isn't that their plastic or metal is 100% more expensive than Toyota's. Why sacrifice margin at current production volume for a gamble risk to recapture end of year profits with greater volume and investment of infrastructure. Suggesting that is living with blinders on because they will reserve that for Macan lifestyle vehicles! hahah!

No one needs to appeal to a market that isn't profitable, a few griping enthusiasts on forums (which frankly always turn out to be a marginal group of buyers anyway) across the world aren't the average consumer. They [we] are the 1%!


I don't want to take away from Porsche too much because they're fantastic. I'd consider myself one of the people who scoffed at the German vehicle price premium until I drove and eventually bought one. They really are a whole different animal entirely in terms of comfort, road noise, ergonomics, etc. You can tell they paid attention to even the little things like how the door sounds when it shuts.


All of that said, the S2000 was a far better car than the original Boxsters in pretty much every way except for what I listed above. The problem is it is lacking a fancy badge with a wow factor and a pedigree. Most of those buying them don't care that the car has by far the best gearbox of anything under 50 grand, fantastic handling dynamics, or a 9000 RPM redline. They don't know jack about cars for that matter. They just want something that has the name brand and the comfort to match, and their biggest concern is carrying a golf bag, and they are well off enough that they don't mind padding Porsche's pockets to get it. You're not going to see your average white collar consumer pulling up to the country club in something like an S2000 so they can tell all their friends how much they saved to get a much more uncomfortable, borderline race car for the streets with a big sport bike tach and a Honda badge, but that it was worth it because the car is better where it counts. It just isn't happening.


So the options are either find a way to break into the premium market and reap the benefit of those markups or make the car cheaper. The S2000 failed because the premium market wanted Porsche/BMW and it wasn't so much faster and better than the Miata to justify the price increase.
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Old 01-31-2017, 05:33 PM   #115
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What I have noticed in the Bay Area at least is that the people who do buy an FRS or BRZ have a tendency to pour thousands in upgrades into their cars.
Wut 2/3 on the road are totally stock.

In a weird twist of fate today, I saw more RX-8's on my morning commute than 86's... That might be a first since I bought the car.
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Old 01-31-2017, 06:51 PM   #116
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I kind of feel like that's the market Nissan chased with the 370z. $35k RWD car with more power and better interior than the S2000. It didn't work out all that great though. I think once you're willing to sacrifice weight to move up-market and add performance, suddenly you're uncomfortably close to competing with the Mustang GT and Camaro SS. The advantages those cars have with the volumes they move and the amount of parts/platform-sharing they do, it'd be hard for any Japanese car manufacturer to compete.
The problem with the 370Z is that it's mysteriously heavy (how did they manage to make it 300lbs heavier than a Porsche?), and has bad brakes, so it's not popular among the performance crowd. It doesn't have the right badge and IMO styling to appeal to a more premium market.

A mid engine Honda would at least have the exotic looks to catch some attention, and if it is light weight it would appeal to the track goers since that tends to mean less running costs and better handling.
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Old 02-16-2017, 11:36 PM   #117
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I'm thinking Chevy SS for my next. Sedated looking performance cars are a rarity these days, and the SS is awesome by making a daily driver that 99.9% of people wouldn't ever notice.
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Old 02-17-2017, 01:13 AM   #118
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Chevy SS is ugly. It's also too expensive. It needs a supercharger to be really fun. I totally see the appeal.
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Old 02-17-2017, 02:24 PM   #119
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I love my BRZ way too much to trade into anything else. If I could afford it, I would buy a WRX or some other AWD vehicle for winter and poor weather driving and a Miata for nice weather and road trips and turn the BRZ into a dedicated track car and go to town modifying it.
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Old 02-17-2017, 03:28 PM   #120
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Chevy SS is ugly. It's also too expensive. It needs a supercharger to be really fun. I totally see the appeal.


What.....
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Old 02-17-2017, 08:42 PM   #121
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I already got this one already.. it is my summer car, spend more time driving it than the twin!
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Old 02-17-2017, 10:38 PM   #122
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They don't know jack about cars for that matter. They just want something that has the name brand and the comfort to match, and their biggest concern is carrying a golf bag, and they are well off enough that they don't mind padding Porsche's pockets to get it. You're not going to see your average white collar consumer pulling up to the country club in something like an S2000 so they can tell all their friends how much they saved to get a much more uncomfortable, borderline race car for the streets with a big sport bike tach and a Honda badge, but that it was worth it because the car is better where it counts. It just isn't happening.
The same folks that usually go for a Rolex, even tho they are not even close to being rare and maybe technically inferior to some lower priced competitors, their perceived quality and prestige are right up there with the high markup.

If Rolex were to price their products in a lower price bracket then these same consumers may no longer take them seriously and won't bite. I would imagine the real Rolex enthusiasts absolutely hate these people.

Replace Rolex with Porsche and what I wrote imo still makes perfect sense.
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Old 02-18-2017, 12:19 AM   #123
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I couldn't disagree with you more regarding Porsche.
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Old 02-18-2017, 04:37 AM   #124
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Replace Rolex with Porsche and what I wrote imo still makes perfect sense.
That analogy works pretty well.
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Old 02-18-2017, 05:57 PM   #125
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Eh, I wouldn't quite equate Porsche with Rolex. The build quality is in fact quite good, and at least the more recent models have been technically well-endowed, at least if you are looking at the Boxster/Cayman/911. For example their "integrated dry sump" is probably better than what BMW puts on the higher end M cars, performance oriented dual cam profiles and high rev limits with short strokes are all standard, extensive heat exchangers for heat management are standard, good aerodynamics are standard, and decent suspension is standard.

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Old 02-20-2017, 11:04 AM   #126
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Porsches are like BMWs in that you have to get up into the GT3/4 or M range to see what the fuss is all about. The base models need modifications (louder, stiffer, faster) to get any kind of wow factor and the performance divisions do that from the factory.

The thread has kind of derailed here but for 75k USD there are so many phenomenal options many of which have been mentioned. Track beast NSX would be hard to beat and keep its value nicely. Cayman GT4 if they ever got that low. Shelby GT350 plus mods. Fully built twin with a V8 swap. GM products seem like they have serious quality issues (nor do I like the Government Motors bailout history).

M2/M4 are kind of derivative of the MKIV Supra. The 400hp RWD turbo 6 speed at 3400 lbs game was played 20 years ago by Toyota.
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