why im glad the brz doesnt have a turbo.

[Ultramaroon]

Originally Posted by perryair

hey, thanks for sharing your non - agreeing opinion like a regular person. im sure that i could love turbos too, its hard for me to get over the spooling but i'm sure like you said its something you can learn to control.

i've driven an old f-150 lightning with a screw type supercharger and that thing was an animal, but thats a sc sitting on top of an 8 cyl engine. i've typically heard good things about the centrifugal style ones as well, but there was a commenter on here who didn't really love his jrsc setup on the brz.

I've had the good fortune of driving friends' twins, one with a Sprintex, another with a JSRC C30, and a third with a Vortech. I'd be lying if I didn't admit toying with the idea of boost but I struggle with the extra maintenance and the fuel economy hit.

If I were to make the jump today, it would be a JSRC with an underdriven C38.

Mechanically, the Vortech also seems to be a solid unit. It sounds tighter/tougher than the Rotrex but I go back to the Jackson because it retains the superbly-engineered OEM airbox.

[Braces]

I'm with @Poodles on the turbos. Modern day turbos are engineered to eliminate most of the lag. Not all, but most. The cheaper cars with turbos do not.

Examples: Ferrari 488 GTB. They partially eliminated lag through ECU programming.
911 Turbo. Vanes on turbo have variable pitch for differing rpms
McLaren: turbo 3.8. These cars are monsters.
Ford GT: turbo V6
Huracan/R8 rumored to get turbo V6

The advantages of the turbos is LIGHT WEIGHT and increased HP.

NA is nice, but FI is here to stay. I've owned both and they both have their strong points. But there is one constant. The FI car ALWAYS seemed faster than my NA.

I can assure you. When you keep a turbocharged 911 on FULL boil .... there is no lag.

The 86 was kept NA because that fit the pricing niche they were looking for. A FI 86 would have been in the 30's.

As an aside. When I 1st purchased my 86 (2013) ... I was told that TRD was going to have a factory SC. I told the dealership to put my name on the list. It never materialized ... or maybe I missed it.

[Ultramaroon]

Originally Posted by Braces

As an aside. When I 1st purchased my 86 (2013) ... I was told that TRD was going to have a factory SC. I told the dealership to put my name on the list. It never materialized ... or maybe I missed it.

They built a few and they're out there. I don't think they got much past the testing/pre-production phase. A family racing team on here sold one or both of theirs.

[mav1178]

Originally Posted by Braces

As an aside. When I 1st purchased my 86 (2013) ... I was told that TRD was going to have a factory SC. I told the dealership to put my name on the list. It never materialized ... or maybe I missed it.

http://www.autoguide.com/gallery/gal...arger.jpg.html

This was basically offered for sale to meet technical requirements to run a supercharger in the PWC series.

Not the first time Toyota has offered something cool for unobtainable prices or qty (See: GT-One)

-alex

[civicdrivr]

I'm with OP. I daily an mk7 GTI. Its quick - definitely quicker than my FR-S. But I've grown to hate turbo motors. The lag is very noticeable on 90* days, to the point where it's frustrating to drive. But, once you're in boost, its a ton of fun. On those same hot days, the FR-S is down on power, but it still feels immediate, where the GTI is far from it.

Maybe one day, turbo'd hybrids that fill in the lag and make the car feel smooth and responsive (a la P1/LaFerrari) will be accessible to common-folk like me.

[nikitopo]

Originally Posted by Braces

The advantages of the turbos is LIGHT WEIGHT and increased HP.

This might be true for the small turbos used in small engines. The turbos used in high performance cars need AWD to transfer correctly the torque to the road. What is more lighter? The addition of two more cylinders and to stay NA or the additional complexity of the turbo and the AWD?

[airjonny]

If the twins were to get more power (not holding my breath on that), I would want it to still be N/A. There's just something about revving the hell out of a car.

[Braces]

Originally Posted by nikitopo

This might be true for the small turbos used in small engines. The turbos used in high performance cars need AWD to transfer correctly the torque to the road. What is more lighter? The addition of two more cylinders and to stay NA or the additional complexity of the turbo and the AWD?

McLaren and Ferrari RWD.

[keithr]

Originally Posted by perryair

are you on the c38 rotor or the c30 one? does the sub 3500rpm feel at least smooth if not powerful? or is the power delivery lumpy down there? this is my weekend warrior car so im typically driving in the city a gear different than what would be 'normal' but i still want the accelerating experience to feel as linear as possible.

I have the c30. The c38 kit wasn't available at the time when I got mine, and, aside from more room to grow, I don't really see much difference with the kit off the shelf. Maybe I missed something. I don't plan on taking the car any further in terms of performance, so I don't see a need for the c38 in my case. I don't want to get into major engine or drivetrain work to support higher power. I'm making approximately as much power as the stock drivetrain can handle without much risk, or so I've been told by people who know more than I do.

Low RPMs just feel anemic. If the A/C is running, it's more noticeable. I wouldn't call it a smooth low-RPM power band, but it's also not unbearably bad. It can be a little rough and choppy at times, depending on a combination of variables, but the way I see it...

1. The car, nor the SC, were designed or optimized for low-RPM situations. Same reason why sport bikes have no power at 1500rpm.

2. This is aftermarket stuff, so no matter how much we want it to be, it'll never have that true OEM smoothness. Jackson did a pretty darn good job, honestly, all things considered.

OEM tunes are generally considered to suck by the enthusiast crowds, because perhaps they leave some performance on the table or perhaps they leave some other things behind, but some credit should be given. What they do achieve is a consistent, predictable and reasonably pleasant driving experience. When you move off OEM, you're accepting that you leave that behind as a trade off for gains elsewhere.

So, while I don't completely LOVE the power band bottom to top, without spending a WHOLE lot more money and a WHOLE lot more time, this is probably about the best I can realistically expect.

Originally Posted by perryair

even though you had it installed, was it a fairly painless process for them? did you do any other work - replacing injectors or anything or was it straight plug and play?

I installed the system myself, actually. I wouldn't call it painless, in fact I felt it was a 7/10 on the pain in the a$$ scale, however, part of that is because I was erroneously shipped a couple incorrect pieces in my kit that didn't fit. I was ASSURED that they never make mistakes on the kits () and I fought and fought and fought to make some things fit. They wouldn't. I wrote some emails, the guys at Jackson were good about getting to the bottom of it and getting me the correct parts. The bigger issue for me though was my OCD. You can NOT be OCD when installing something like this, because it will NOT fit *PERFECTLY* -- it will require a fair bit of "shove and twist until it looks close enough." By all comparative standards, though, this kit installs really well. No drilling or major modifications, and it can be reversed. From what I've been told, the JR kit is MUCH better to install than some of the competing ones, but that's just hearsay. I trust the word of the folks who tell me that though.

I did have a failure on my Rotrex after about 3 months. I worked with Jackson who worked with Rotrex on the back end. Since Rotrex is in Denmark, I would have had to wait a few weeks to get the unit shipped overseas, inspected, etc., by Rotrex, for them to determine if a warranty claim was approved. I couldn't wait that long, I needed the car back on the road and I would need a new blower one way or another, so I just paid for one and Jackson got it to me quickly. There were some delays (I guess somewhere along the way my unit got lost or forgotten about) but eventually after a couple months I got word back that Rotrex determined it was a defective unit and thus they approved the warranty claim, at which point Jackson reimbursed me for the cost of the unit that I paid for. So, kudos to Jackson for being customer-focused and Rotrex for standing behind their product.

The replacement Rotrex, I did not install. I had Mike from CSG Garage fly in to do it. At that point, my frustration level was topped out and I was over it. I didn't want to be bothered with it, and I was also second guessing my work at that point (not knowing if the failure was due to something I did incorrectly.) I decided it was worth paying to have a pro come in and put their magic hands on it. Mike assured me that my install was fine (he tweaked a couple pipes to make them fit a little bit better, but he's done dozens of these kits and knew the secret sauce recipe) and a couple months later when I finally got word back from Rotrex that it was indeed a factory problem with the unit and covered by warranty, I felt a lot better, and not only because I got my $2,000+ back.

I've done no other work to the engine... see my above comments -- I don't want to go any further with the performance mods on this car. No injectors, no flex fuel, transmission or rear end, etc. The only other mechanical change I've made is a header-back exhaust (Invidia Q300). I had some stiffer transmission shift springs, transmission mount, and shift bushing, but I since took all those out and went back to stock.

I'm running ultra-purified physics-defying frictionless blinker fluid that is distilled from the spleens of endangered baby seals, though, and let me tell you, I can really feel the difference. It's rated 5.97 sparkle Unicorns.

[Poodles]

Originally Posted by perryair

im not the kind of guy thats been lucky or rich enough to drive a porsche 911 but even according to its engineers:

"Under intense questioning, one of the Porsche engineers admitted that at 1800 rpm, the engine needs three full seconds to produce full torque from a closed throttle, though he was quick to add that the turbo lag dropped to two seconds at 2000 rpm and only one second at 2300. If a bit of turbo lag at very low revs is the price for a 7500-rpm redline charge, I think most of us will happily pay it."

http://blog.caranddriver.com/tech-di...urbo-flat-six/

im sure that it feels joyous and wonderful and i would trade a new turbo 911 for my brz in a heartbeat, but still it remains that there is some lag there.

Keep in mind that's full boost. The 911 is an absolute monster in the low end area if you look at their dyno sheets. Not to mention one doesn't try to go full song at 1800 RPM (hell, do that on our cars and it's completely gutless).

As the saying goes, boost is but a downshift away

Originally Posted by nikitopo

Turbos are something trendy in our days and unfortunately a necessity mainly for reasons of consumption and CO2 regulations. Turbos were known for many many decades, but most manufacturers took them seriously maybe after the late 90s. Some of the biggest manufacturers have admitted that there isn't anything serious about them, but unfortunately most of them are leaving behind their NA designs. At least for the time being. I believe we are lucky that our cars were designed as NA. Of course, both companies are paying for years the price of such decision. I'm not opposed to more power, but for me it matters how you get it. Personally, I am interested to see the potential of our engines with better intake manifolds, better engine management, stroker kits, than just throwing a S/C or a turbo.

Turbos were far more "trendy" in the 80's for performance. Now they're being used to turbo a 4 cylinder to replace an aging 6 cylinder to get much the same performance. Like I said, displacement on demand. It's far more simple than cylinder deactivation crap some companies are using...

Originally Posted by W129

I have owned 4-5 turbo cars in my life, everyone I learned how to stay in boost, so set that aside.

I have never driven or liked positive displacement super chargers.

Let's talk centrifugal superchargers.

If you have never driven a Rotrex Supercharged car, you don't know what you're missing. I have a 99 Miata (4 years)with a Rotrex C30-74 @ 8psi inter-cooled (120RWHP to 220RWHP). Most people who have driven or driven with me, do not know it has a supercharger. I am more likely to hear " I didn't know Miata's were this fast.

It feels more like a bump in displacement, it's just faster, pulls a little harder. Slightly higher exhaust note.

If you look at the dynos, you see very similar curves, just moved up the graph. Very easy to control on the track and street. This is exactly what I want for my 86.

A proper factory turbo (spools at 2500, holds boost to fuel cut) with a drive train to match would be a great option

Yep, the Rotrex really is a dream setup. Damn close to turbo efficiency with a bolt on setup that's easier to tune than a turbo (as you can always know boost level based on RPM)

Originally Posted by Ultramaroon

I've had the good fortune of driving friends' twins, one with a Sprintex, another with a JSRC C30, and a third with a Vortech. I'd be lying if I didn't admit toying with the idea of boost but I struggle with the extra maintenance and the fuel economy hit.

If I were to make the jump today, it would be a JSRC with an underdriven C38.

Mechanically, the Vortech also seems to be a solid unit. It sounds tighter/tougher than the Rotrex but I go back to the Jackson because it retains the superbly-engineered OEM airbox.

But... it doesn't. Jackson Racing uses a pod filter. Not really an issue unless you're in some place like Australia that has laws against open element filters.

Originally Posted by nikitopo

This might be true for the small turbos used in small engines. The turbos used in high performance cars need AWD to transfer correctly the torque to the road. What is more lighter? The addition of two more cylinders and to stay NA or the additional complexity of the turbo and the AWD?

This is simply not true and not a good comparison at all.

[Ultramaroon]

Originally Posted by Poodles

But... it doesn't. Jackson Racing uses a pod filter. Not really an issue unless you're in some place like Australia that has laws against open element filters.

Well THAT'S awkward. I got my systems all mixed up. It was the Sprintex/Innovate.

But that's not the one I want. Now what?

[perryair]

Originally Posted by keithr

I have the c30. The c38 kit wasn't available at the time when I got mine, and, aside from more room to grow, I don't really see much difference with the kit off the shelf. Maybe I missed something. I don't plan on taking the car any further in terms of performance, so I don't see a need for the c38 in my case. I don't want to get into major engine or drivetrain work to support higher power. I'm making approximately as much power as the stock drivetrain can handle without much risk, or so I've been told by people who know more than I do.

Low RPMs just feel anemic. If the A/C is running, it's more noticeable. I wouldn't call it a smooth low-RPM power band, but it's also not unbearably bad. It can be a little rough and choppy at times, depending on a combination of variables, but the way I see it...

1. The car, nor the SC, were designed or optimized for low-RPM situations. Same reason why sport bikes have no power at 1500rpm.

2. This is aftermarket stuff, so no matter how much we want it to be, it'll never have that true OEM smoothness. Jackson did a pretty darn good job, honestly, all things considered.

OEM tunes are generally considered to suck by the enthusiast crowds, because perhaps they leave some performance on the table or perhaps they leave some other things behind, but some credit should be given. What they do achieve is a consistent, predictable and reasonably pleasant driving experience. When you move off OEM, you're accepting that you leave that behind as a trade off for gains elsewhere.

So, while I don't completely LOVE the power band bottom to top, without spending a WHOLE lot more money and a WHOLE lot more time, this is probably about the best I can realistically expect.



I installed the system myself, actually. I wouldn't call it painless, in fact I felt it was a 7/10 on the pain in the a$$ scale, however, part of that is because I was erroneously shipped a couple incorrect pieces in my kit that didn't fit. I was ASSURED that they never make mistakes on the kits () and I fought and fought and fought to make some things fit. They wouldn't. I wrote some emails, the guys at Jackson were good about getting to the bottom of it and getting me the correct parts. The bigger issue for me though was my OCD. You can NOT be OCD when installing something like this, because it will NOT fit *PERFECTLY* -- it will require a fair bit of "shove and twist until it looks close enough." By all comparative standards, though, this kit installs really well. No drilling or major modifications, and it can be reversed. From what I've been told, the JR kit is MUCH better to install than some of the competing ones, but that's just hearsay. I trust the word of the folks who tell me that though.

I did have a failure on my Rotrex after about 3 months. I worked with Jackson who worked with Rotrex on the back end. Since Rotrex is in Denmark, I would have had to wait a few weeks to get the unit shipped overseas, inspected, etc., by Rotrex, for them to determine if a warranty claim was approved. I couldn't wait that long, I needed the car back on the road and I would need a new blower one way or another, so I just paid for one and Jackson got it to me quickly. There were some delays (I guess somewhere along the way my unit got lost or forgotten about) but eventually after a couple months I got word back that Rotrex determined it was a defective unit and thus they approved the warranty claim, at which point Jackson reimbursed me for the cost of the unit that I paid for. So, kudos to Jackson for being customer-focused and Rotrex for standing behind their product.

The replacement Rotrex, I did not install. I had Mike from CSG Garage fly in to do it. At that point, my frustration level was topped out and I was over it. I didn't want to be bothered with it, and I was also second guessing my work at that point (not knowing if the failure was due to something I did incorrectly.) I decided it was worth paying to have a pro come in and put their magic hands on it. Mike assured me that my install was fine (he tweaked a couple pipes to make them fit a little bit better, but he's done dozens of these kits and knew the secret sauce recipe) and a couple months later when I finally got word back from Rotrex that it was indeed a factory problem with the unit and covered by warranty, I felt a lot better, and not only because I got my $2,000+ back.

I've done no other work to the engine... see my above comments -- I don't want to go any further with the performance mods on this car. No injectors, no flex fuel, transmission or rear end, etc. The only other mechanical change I've made is a header-back exhaust (Invidia Q300). I had some stiffer transmission shift springs, transmission mount, and shift bushing, but I since took all those out and went back to stock.

I'm running ultra-purified physics-defying frictionless blinker fluid that is distilled from the spleens of endangered baby seals, though, and let me tell you, I can really feel the difference. It's rated 5.97 sparkle Unicorns.

its the blinker fluid that makes everything shine. well im hoping to some day in the next few years afford a sc install so this is all good stuff. thanks.

[gravitylover]

I'll wait until I can get an electric boost of some sort. Not turbo or supercharged but instant, on demand, across the powerband electric. It would be nice if there was a way to manually adjust the level of boost too.

Just thinking out loud after a beer (or 3)

[VTEC]

Originally Posted by airjonny

If the twins were to get more power (not holding my breath on that), I would want it to still be N/A. There's just something about revving the hell out of a car.

Agreed. I actually like our FA20 the way it is. You get same lovely boxer engine sound as the WRX but you can rev it way higher. Yes, it's nowhere near as fast as the WRX but it's still peppy enough to have fun.