FR-S vs 2012 Ford Focus ST

[Spaceywilly]

Originally Posted by SVTSHC

What it comes down to is you're intent with either vehicle. The FRS obviously has more potential then the ST but if you're just going to keep the vehicle stock then the ST is far from a bad choice at an extremely reasonable price for what you're getting.

Yeah, I think this is what it comes down to. The ST and other hot hatches are a great compromise for the daily driver that is also tracked/autocrossed. They do have great handling when set up properly but the experience of driving them doesn't compare to a proper RWD sports car. This is why I don't really think there is any comparison between them. You either need a practical car like the ST or you don't. If you do, you would never consider the FRS/BRZ, and if you don't, you probably would never the consider the ST. I don't think there will be much cross shopping between them.

[bimmerboy]

To me the new Focus ST screams GTI competitor. Both FWD, turbo'd hatches that will probably be much better daily-drivers but at the sacrifice of pure precision... If I was in the market for a vw GTI I would def cross-shop the two.

As others have stated it comes down to personal preferences on what matters most to you. If all out handling is your #1 priority in a new car, FR-S/BRZ it is...

[ducks]

Originally Posted by Spaceywilly

Yeah, I think this is what it comes down to. The ST and other hot hatches are a great compromise for the daily driver that is also tracked/autocrossed. They do have great handling when set up properly but the experience of driving them doesn't compare to a proper RWD sports car. This is why I don't really think there is any comparison between them. You either need a practical car like the ST or you don't. If you do, you would never consider the FRS/BRZ, and if you don't, you probably would never the consider the ST. I don't think there will be much cross shopping between them.

I cross shopped the FRS, BRZ, Genesis coupe, Mazda3, Mazdaspeed3, WRX, Jetta GLI, and Mustang V6. Focus ST would have been on the list but I can't wait for it to come out.

Basically, I was looking for a $25k or under daily driver that wouldn't bore me to death. There's plenty of options if you keep an open mind and don't try to pigeonhole the cars into having ONE function.

Getting an FRS btw.

[mines13]

I find this car very interesting, if I had kids or just needed the space I would seriously consider it.

[SpeedR]

Some of you people need to put down the PS controller and get on a real track!!

FWD sucks for performance driving the best you can hope for is to cover up the problems with electronic driving aids.

This doesn’t mean the focus is a bad car or can’t go around a track or isn’t a better car for some people if not most people BUT stop pretending FWD and RWD are equal they are NOT that’s ½ the point of this car.

Before you go and decide to comment ask yourself ware dose my expertise come from? If it’s from a video game STFU.

[MtnDrvr86]

^^^ I love rwd as much as the next person but, rwd does NOT always equals better. There are some amazing front drivers out there. A proper set up on a fwd car can be very fun and very quick. ...just to name a few, integra R, civic si/R, mini coopers, focus svt and rs, VW gti. all great cars and plenty quick performance cars. Besides, this thread is about comparing them. Ive said it before, I will be cross shopping these cars, among others, as will many people here.

Ive been following the Focus ST almost as much as Ive been following the FRS/BRZ, I like both and will consider both when I can make a purchase down the road.

[SVTSHC]

Originally Posted by SpeedR

Some of you people need to put down the PS controller and get on a real track!!

FWD sucks for performance driving the best you can hope for is to cover up the problems with electronic driving aids.

This doesn’t mean the focus is a bad car or can’t go around a track or isn’t a better car for some people if not most people BUT stop pretending FWD and RWD are equal they are NOT that’s ½ the point of this car.

Before you go and decide to comment ask yourself ware dose my expertise come from? If it’s from a video game STFU.

Careful, your inner idiot is showing.

I've had plenty of RWD drivers wanting to tear their hair out wondering if somethings wrong with their cars when I used to track my SVT. You can almost completely rectify the issues with FWD for track driving so long as you don't plan on daily driving the car.

Reverse stagger the wheels, LSD, Urathane Bushings / motor mounts, good set of coilovers, suspension tuning, tower braces and a roll cage (I ran everything except the roll cage and my car did more than fine). The reason wheel hop happens is largely due to the front suspension being unloaded under hard acceleration and torque steer is fixable. The problem manufacturers have regarding torque steer isn't that they don't know how to get rid of it, it's that they have trouble eliminating it while still maintaining comfortable driveability.

[SuqMadiq]

Originally Posted by SpeedR

Some of you people need to put down the PS controller and get on a real track!!

FWD sucks for performance driving the best you can hope for is to cover up the problems with electronic driving aids.

This doesn’t mean the focus is a bad car or can’t go around a track or isn’t a better car for some people if not most people BUT stop pretending FWD and RWD are equal they are NOT that’s ½ the point of this car.

Before you go and decide to comment ask yourself ware dose my expertise come from? If it’s from a video game STFU.

I recall the Cobalt SS tearing up some AWD and RWD cars on the track. I would also bet, that when Car&Driver tests the FR-S/BR-Z in the lightning lap, the Cobalt SS will have been faster.

71 3:12.0 NISSAN NISMO 370Z LL2 2/10
72 3:12.5 NISSAN 350Z TRACK LL1 11/06
73 3:12.5 FORD MUSTANG V-6 LL1 2/11
74 3:13.0 CHEVROLET COBALT SS LL1 11/08
75 3:13.3 FORD MUSTANG GT LL1 2/10
76 3:13.3 MITSUBISHI LANCER EVOLUTION MR LL2 11/08
77 3:13.5 MITSUBISHI LANCER EVOLUTION IX MR LL1 11/06
78 3:13.7 BMW 135i COUPE LL2 11/08
79 3:13.8 HYUNDAI GENESIS COUPE 3.8 R-SPEC LL1 2/11
80 3:13.8 SUBARU IMPREZA WRX STI SEDAN LL2 2/11
81 3:13.8 BMW 335is LL2 2/12
82 3:14.0 LEXUS IS F LL2 11/08
83 3:14.0 VOLKSWAGEN GOLF R LL2 2/12
84 3:14.6 AUDI S5 LL2 11/08
85 3:14.8 HYUNDAI GENESIS COUPE 3.8 LL1 2/10
86 3:15.0 HONDA S2000 CR LL2 11/08
87 3:15.7 PONTIAC SOLSTICE GXP LL1 8/07
88 3:16.0 MAZDASPEED 3 LL1 8/07
89 3:16.2 MAZDASPEED 3 LL1 2/10
90 3:16.3 DODGE CHALLENGER SRT8 LL2 11/08
91 3:16.5 SUBARU IMPREZA WRX SEDAN LL1 2/11
92 3:16.6 SUBARU IMPREZA WRX HATCHBACK LL1 2/10
93 3:16.6 LOTUS ELISE SC LL2 11/08
94 3:16.7 MAZDA RX-8 R3 LL2 2/11
95 3:17.1 MINI COOPER JOHN COOPER WORKS LL1 2/10
96 3:17.4 JEEP GRAND CHEROKEE SRT8 LLT 2/12
97 3:17.5 INFINITI G37 COUPE SPORT LL2 11/08
98 3:18.2 DODGE CHARGER SRT8 LL2 11/06
99 3:18.4 MINI COOPER JOHN COOPER WORKS COUPE LL2 2/12
100 3:19.0 MAZDA RX-8 LL1 11/06

http://www.caranddriver.com/features...to-2012-page-8

[SpeedR]

Originally Posted by MtnDrvr86

^^^ I love rwd as much as the next person but, rwd does NOT always equals better.

All other things being equal yes it dose!
Its basic physics people!

[SpeedR]

Originally Posted by SVTSHC

Careful, your inner idiot is showing.

I've had plenty of RWD drivers wanting to tear their hair out wondering if somethings wrong with their cars when I used to track my SVT. You can almost completely rectify the issues with FWD for track driving so long as you don't plan on daily driving the car.

Reverse stagger the wheels, LSD, Urathane Bushings / motor mounts, good set of coilovers, suspension tuning, tower braces and a roll cage (I ran everything except the roll cage and my car did more than fine). The reason wheel hop happens is largely due to the front suspension being unloaded under hard acceleration and torque steer is fixable. The problem manufacturers have regarding torque steer isn't that they don't know how to get rid of it, it's that they have trouble eliminating it while still maintaining comfortable driveability.

So apparently you agree with my “inner idiot” that FWD has problems that need to be corrected for performance driving.

Thank you for proving my point.

As I stated the inherent problems of FWD can be overcome the point is that there are inherent problems.

[SuqMadiq]

Originally Posted by SpeedR

All other things being equal yes it dose!
Its basic physics people!

Before I jump to conclusions about you being a complete idiot, I will give you the chance to explain the "basic physics" you are referring to.

I don't want your opinion or what you have witnessed, I want cold hard facts. Equations, diagrams, 3D models... Whatever it takes to simply explain why RWD is ALWAYS better.

[WolfpackS2k]

Electronic driving aids that mimic mechanical LSDs suck because they use the brakes. This does your braking system no favors when you're at a track day. Hello brake fade!

[SpeedR]

Originally Posted by SuqMadiq

Before I jump to conclusions about you being a complete idiot, I will give you the chance to explain the "basic physics" you are referring to.

I don't want your opinion or what you have witnessed, I want cold hard facts. Equations, diagrams, 3D models... Whatever it takes to simply explain why RWD is ALWAYS better.

It’s simple physics all things being equal it’s much more difficult to have only one set of wheels doing the steering and the accelerating. By having the front wheels do the steering, and the rear wheels driving the car forword, you get a better-balanced vehicle.

Any driving instructor will tell you this and every book on performance driving will say RWD is better than FWD. You only have a few square inches where the rubber meets the road separating the jobs of steering and the accelerating is much better than having only 2 of your contact pads do all the work while the other two very little.

O and don’t get me wrong I do like your little computer driving games I played GT (4??IDK) for the first time on the first 86 trip. It was fun and they gave me a copy of the game for having the fastest time. Maybe being a performance driving instructor for the past 5 years helped or owning and driving a 850hp RR car IDK I’m not that good of a drive myself.

Thanks for not jump to conclusions about me being a complete idiot.

Now why don’t you explain how you think FWD and RWD are equal in terms of performance driving?

I don't want your opinion or what you have witnessed, I want cold hard facts. Equations, diagrams, 3D models...LOL

[SVTSHC]

Originally Posted by SpeedR

So apparently you agree with my “inner idiot” that FWD has problems that need to be corrected for performance driving.

Thank you for proving my point.

As I stated the inherent problems of FWD can be overcome the point is that there are inherent problems.

I don't agree with your "inner idiot" your inner idiot is just that, an idiot. You claimed FWD sucked for performance driving, I proved that it doesn't. You likely don't actually track drive or instruct anything and are pulling this 100% from your ass (Hell even if you were an instructor that doesn't mean you know what you’re talking about. My friend’s wife is a Skip Barber instructor and sure she can drive, hell she's an INSANELY good driver but she doesn't know a thing about how the vehicles work.) Some of the issues inherent with FWD vehicles are present in both RWD and AWD vehicles as well. Wheel hop happens with rear wheel also, the need for an LSD isn't lessened simply because the driven wheels are at the back now, about the only thing you DON'T have to worry about is torque steer. You can get a FWD vehicle to hang its tail out with the best of them reverse staggering your wheels. You reverse stagger wheels in a FWD vehicle if you feel you need the oversteer, you stagger wheels on a RWD vehicle to cut back on oversteer. You set up your suspension up to assist with the toe changes caused by the vehicle unloading some of its weight during hard acceleration (for example, one of the things I did in addition to adjusting my alignment settings was I set my SVT up to be an inch higher in the rear.); just like on a RWD vehicle before you hit the track you'd be in better shape if you gave yourself a bit more negative camber to get rid of the factory propensity to understeer.

In other words, just because you have to do something different to the other doesn't mean its better. It means you have to do something different; you're still making modifications.

How can FWD be equal to RWD in terms of performance driving? Easy, you spend fricken money and put work into your car the same way you spend money and put work into your RWD or AWD car. Like I said, stock for stock I could put money down that the ST would beat the FRS around a track. So if that's your 'focus' then you just lost to one.

Edit: Dunno why I'm bothering though, if there's one thing I've learned its that when people so far gone in their stubborn mindset see an arguement that differs from their own they don't waste a single second considering it.