Spec Twin?

[Twinz]

I guess the rules depend on the "problem" they want to fix.

If the SCCA just wants a place below STX for all twins, then just allow the BRZ's to run the TRD parts and use the 17+ stock wheel allowance. (7.5" ?)

I think coolers should be open in all stock classes in a sort of "comfort/convinence" way. (I don't see them shaving time for the short runs we do in autocross)

If they want to call it a "spec" class so as not to open the flood gates for other stock classes to start interchanging parts, that's fine.

I think the 86 platform has enough participation to warrant such a class and hope something like this happens.

[Shark_Bait88]

Originally Posted by Twinz

I guess the rules depend on the "problem" they want to fix.

If the SCCA just wants a place below STX for all twins, then just allow the BRZ's to run the TRD parts and use the 17+ stock wheel allowance. (7.5" ?)

I think coolers should be open in all stock classes in a sort of "comfort/convinence" way. (I don't see them shaving time for the short runs we do in autocross)

If they want to call it a "spec" class so as not to open the flood gates for other stock classes to start interchanging parts, that's fine.

I think the 86 platform has enough participation to warrant such a class and hope something like this happens.

CS is not the class in which I'd want to place all twins. Unless that pesky ND gets moved elsewhere. haha

I agree on the oil coolers allowance.

[Twinz]

Originally Posted by Shark_Bait88

CS is not the class in which I'd want to place all twins. Unless that pesky ND gets moved elsewhere. haha

I agree on the oil coolers allowance.

I agree that CS won't work because other classes would want to start swapping parts between cars. This would have to be something other than "street". It would effectively be a street class called something else like "spec". (And just have twins in it...I think there are enough of us to make good participation numbers)

[Biggins]

I think it's a great idea, but I doubt I'll move to the class in my car only because I want to eventually get the fancy MCS stuff. However, I'd definitely look for a co-drive in the new class or maybe buy another car as the used prices slowly creep lower.

The rules should keep costs to a minimum, but I would like to see stock shocks still be an option if you cannot immediately afford the Koni/Bilstein/etc. I think there should also be one tire and size chosen for the class and perhaps try to get that tire manufacturer to support the class, even if it may not be the fastest tire brand out there.

I hate adding more classes, but I hope this class doesn't kill too much participation from DS or STX.

[Shark_Bait88]

Originally Posted by Biggins

I think it's a great idea, but I doubt I'll move to the class in my car only because I want to eventually get the fancy MCS stuff. However, I'd definitely look for a co-drive in the new class or maybe buy another car as the used prices slowly creep lower.

The rules should keep costs to a minimum, but I would like to see stock shocks still be an option if you cannot immediately afford the Koni/Bilstein/etc. I think there should also be one tire and size chosen for the class and perhaps try to get that tire manufacturer to support the class, even if it may not be the fastest tire brand out there.

I hate adding more classes, but I hope this class doesn't kill too much participation from DS or STX.

I'd be okay with a spec class tire, especially if it received some manufacturer support.

I don't think it would kill DS since it's such a diverse class. You'd still have the WRX, E36 M3, Turbo 'Maro, and EcoStang, among others.

STX might be tougher, since the Twins are pretty much the go-to car there. But perhaps them exiting would encourage greater participation by other platforms that tend to stay out of the class because of Twin dominance.

Although, I really don't expect too many people to de-mod STX cars to run in a spec class. I think you'd more likely see a convergence of CS/DS twins that want to upgrade a bit more without going into STX. Depending on rules, you might also see more consistent participation by HPDE focused Twins that don't do much autox since they can't really fall into any class "competitively."

[Cueman]

Hey it IS happening! From RRAX... see vendor 5.

[TrqlessWonder]

Claimer rule at big events, cough up the money and you buy the fast guys dampers. 16 nuts and they're yours, bring a spare set of stock suspension to get you home. If the cost of the claim is the same as retail for the dampers it's more expensive than getting your own rebuilt, theoretically the person getting bought out hasn't lost anything (except maybe a fresh rebuild) and gets to buy a fresh set.

Edit: I think I'd prefer that over a sealed/spec/regularly dyno'd damper. Much cheaper overall on the sport to regulate than paying for damper dyno time, allows freedom to pick Koni, Bilstein, or alternative (like OE). And despite what you may think (oh no the top 3 cars are going to have their dampers stolen every big event!) claims are rare. As a kid when someone claimed an engine there were whispers coast to coast of what happened. Before everyone put everything online so it was literal word of mouth.

Yes someone with big pockets can go out and get dyno time and custom rebuilds and dyno a hundred dampers to find the best set, but when the risk exists that all that effort will be wiped out it keeps people from pushing the envelope too far beyond the costs.

And of course if anything is found illegal during teardown (i.e. slotted bolt holes or perches at the wrong height) the claimer gets refunded and the parts either confiscated, branded, etc. as any other tech inspection failure.

Edit 2: Yes this doesn't prevent people from blowing thousands of dollars, it just raises the risk in the risk-reward equation and typically keeps people from going bonkers. For example, claim is ~$900 enough for a set of new Koni Yellow or Bilstein B6's, but that probably wouldn't prevent me from paying ~$600 to send a set of Bilsteins to Poway to have a custom valving done on them. If I do well and get claimed I suck up the loss and repeat the process, cost of doing well in the class. But it would probably prevent 99% of competitors from going out and paying someone like FCM for a fancy rebuild because at that point the returns are minimal.

Vendors will likely put together packages like a matched set of Koni Yellows for $200 more than off the shelf, but I don't think that's a bad thing.

Claimer rules are a non-starter in solo, so I'm not real sure why the suggestion keeps getting made. You seem to think that claimer rules only benefit the little guy. It's just as easy to be a big guy and bully the scrub who "shouldn't have beaten you."

How much fun would that be? You drive well above your average and do well, big spender is not amused that he couldn't buy his win. So, he snags your shocks. Yours weren't special, but that doesn't matter. It's spite, now. Just to make your day long and crappy. Only, this is also your DD, and it's not like you actually had the money to have a full set of shocks on-hand at all times. Much less, the tools to do that job don't really fit in with the rest of everything. Oh, and the sunlight is fading.

If you can't enforce something, don't restrict it. No one is going to sign up for the threat of at-a-whim teardown work (which is what claiming is, it's not a protest, well-founded doesn't apply there) being a real possibility everywhere you go.

[strat61caster]

Originally Posted by TrqlessWonder

Only, this is also your DD, and it's not like you actually had the money to have a full set of shocks on-hand at all times. Much less, the tools to do that job don't really fit in with the rest of everything. Oh, and the sunlight is fading.

Everybody sells their OE when they buy aftermarket?
You don't have the ~6 wrenches and sockets and jack and jack stands? Bet there's at least a few dozen sets on site that can do the job.

If you can't enforce something, don't restrict it. No one is going to sign up for the threat of at-a-whim teardown work (which is what claiming is, it's not a protest, well-founded doesn't apply there) being a real possibility everywhere you go.

I made the caveat of big events, yeah it'd be totally unreasonable to have your dampers bought out at local events 1-12, but you run the big shows you have to be ready to tear your car down to prove it's legit. But I've got a different mentality from a different time, I will totally accept that claiming has no place in Solo.

I agree, if you can't enforce, don't restrict, they're not going to have a damper dyno at an event to prove damping isn't modified from off the shelf (even if the supplier manages to hold tight enough tolerances for that to be legit), but hell maybe I'm wrong and SCCA is saving up for a NASCAR level tech inspection workshop trailer

throwing out silly ideas sometimes fishes out the right ideas, I never would pitch this with the exception of a 'spec' item that's extremely hard to inspect that has a noticeable impact on performance



Spec Miata engines come to mind, all sealed, all supposedly legit, except that time a few years ago...

[TrqlessWonder]

Originally Posted by strat61caster

Everybody sells their OE when they buy aftermarket?
You don't have the ~6 wrenches and sockets and jack and jack stands? Bet there's at least a few dozen sets on site that can do the job.

I actually do still have all my OE stuff, but I'm of the impression that I'm more the exception than the rule. It's not like the STX drivers that carry around a spare axle remove it from their trunk in giddy anticipation.

I made the caveat of big events, yeah it'd be totally unreasonable to have your dampers bought out at local events 1-12, but you run the big shows you have to be ready to tear your car down to prove it's legit. But I've got a different mentality from a different time, I will totally accept that claiming has no place in Solo.

That's where the disconnect is for me on claimer rules. Protest me, forcing me to pull a corner off my car to measure things to prove legality? Absolutely. With a loser-pays bond. I can exercise lots of control over that by simply bringing a legal car. But in claimer rules, we're not assessing legality.

And if it was an effort to use a claim rule to ascertain legality, well then that's just a loser-pays protest. Otherwise, how can one claim "illegal" shocks to then install on their car?

throwing out silly ideas sometimes fishes out the right ideas, I never would pitch this with the exception of a 'spec' item that's extremely hard to inspect that has a noticeable impact on performance



Spec Miata engines come to mind, all sealed, all supposedly legit, except that time a few years ago...

Thankfully, solo has a much different view on compliance than club racing with regards to that "Tech Shed Legal" tomfoolery. We won't need to claim a cheater's parts. Protest them successfully, put them on blast to the club, and watch mob justice do its thing.

Sealed struts might work at least sort of. With warts that might be worth accepting.
Street class damper rules are easier to comply with and enforce though.

Whatever this ends up being, I would expect it to be designed to have only the barest minimum of administrative resources required. Things like "You shall use part number xr3478" and we accept whatever mfr variation that comes with it.

I would also expect it to be at the performance level of an all-dealer-accessories TRD twin. This might be overly cynical (thinking TRD/SPT will end up the primary commercial influence, not necessarily TR):

-TRD intake, catback (probably w/o header, unless TRD/SPT makes one)
-7.5" or 8" wheels
-Cam bolts instead of crash bolts
-Street class shock rules, including the rules on spring perches
-TRD/Series.whatevercolor springs and bars
-Defined tire size, not sure if mfr would/should be spec'd
-Either factory or canned tune
-Street category rules on everything else. Batteries, seats, etc.

All easily verifiable things, none of which are super-prohibitively-expensive to do and be considered a srsbzns entry. I don't think that car would suck to drive, and it could still be a DD.

Which probably deflates the idea for some.

[Twinz]

I think the simplest way to give the twins a place to play without stepping on STX is a special "street" class that just gets named something else. Allow all twins in the class to use the "street" parts from other models (TRD + 7.5" wheel allowance from the 17+ twins) and we have our "spec" class that will probably be well-attended. The policing of such a class should not be any more difficult than the current street classes.

[strat61caster]

Originally Posted by TrqlessWonder

All easily verifiable things, none of which are super-prohibitively-expensive to do and be considered a srsbzns entry. I don't think that car would suck to drive, and it could still be a DD.

Which probably deflates the idea for some.

It's just all too damn close to the Street class, I don't know why I'd spend slightly more to not compete in a field with a big variety and well known drivers elevating the competition in the class. That's the fun of Solo imo and I hope DS grows as different cars prove competitive. I think it's cool that Camaros run against WRX's and 86's and M3's and Mini's, yeah there might be some overdogs (time will tell) but the fact that it works out that they're close at all is cool.

I don't think there's that many people sad about not having an inbetween for Street and Street Touring, and there's too big a difference driver to driver as to what is missing from street and what's 'too much' in street touring. Personally I want full alignment capability, someone else probably wants headers and tune, someone else wants wider wheels and tires, someone else wants lowering springs, someone else wants to have full aero.

can't please everybody

Cost controlled fun is likely the goal, the three biggest costs that I've seen in solo is suspension (dampers and tuning), tires, and power. Street class limits most of that cost with the exception of tires and dampers. Spec tire makes sense but dampers are tricky and something that's hard to control costs on without spec'ing a unit, but if you can't enforce...

[Shark_Bait88]

Really, I'd be perfectly happy with an oil cooler allowance for DS, to alleviate worry for track day participation.

Open camber bolt rules would be a preferable inbetween too, but otherwise I'm happy with what street allows for a dual (or triple, if DD) purpose car. Lowering springs would be nice, but I don't HAVE to have them.

[Twinz]

Originally Posted by strat61caster

It's just all too damn close to the Street class, I don't know why I'd spend slightly more to not compete in a field with a big variety and well known drivers elevating the competition in the class. That's the fun of Solo imo and I hope DS grows as different cars prove competitive. I think it's cool that Camaros run against WRX's and 86's and M3's and Mini's, yeah there might be some overdogs (time will tell) but the fact that it works out that they're close at all is cool.

If most 86 drivers feel like the car is competitive in DS, then there isn't really a need for a special class.

People who want to mod can go to STX and people who want street can stay in DS. (well, with pre-17 models anyway)

[TrqlessWonder]

Originally Posted by strat61caster

It's just all too damn close to the Street class, I don't know why I'd spend slightly more to not compete in a field with a big variety and well known drivers elevating the competition in the class. That's the fun of Solo imo and I hope DS grows as different cars prove competitive. I think it's cool that Camaros run against WRX's and 86's and M3's and Mini's, yeah there might be some overdogs (time will tell) but the fact that it works out that they're close at all is cool.

I don't disagree that it's close to street class. But I'm thinking we'd want to keep it from being a full STX build in involvement and cost.

Such a twin (spec twin that is) I would think would be more palatable (less close to street) if we forget that TRD twins exist right now. Springs/shocks/bars/alignment capability and bolt-on-only power is farther away from DS than CS.

And maybe it's a place for me to run and hide from the miatae while still having a lowered car, and not spending full-scale STX money.

I don't think there's that many people sad about not having an inbetween for Street and Street Touring, and there's too big a difference driver to driver as to what is missing from street and what's 'too much' in street touring. Personally I want full alignment capability, someone else probably wants headers and tune, someone else wants wider wheels and tires, someone else wants lowering springs, someone else wants to have full aero.

can't please everybody

Also agreed. Maybe they'll have a door #3 option, but I'm thinking that this (street-plus) is the straightforward comprehensive structure to cover the bases that we end up starting with.

Full disclosure: What I described I would be interested in doing. Just a street car that handles well and sounds good, and is within the reach of more casual folks. The notions of making it just a consensus fixed spec but otherwise full STX build are much less appealing to me.