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Engine, Exhaust, Transmission Discuss the FR-S | 86 | BRZ engine, exhaust and drivetrain.


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Old 05-04-2017, 04:38 PM   #29
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I'm not sure how fair this assessment is. This time of year it's normal for us to operate on a 2-3 wait time. Orders are processed immediately because they are automatically through the website. Whereas I have to answer each email manually while simultaneously working on a dozen custom e-tuning jobs at any give time and still finding time to tune a few GT86s on the dyno every week.
Hope all delays also is becuse you are working on OTS vol 3.
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Old 05-04-2017, 05:03 PM   #30
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Headers fail because of heat, metal that is constantly heated and cooled wears and can eventually wear out. Changing the way heat transfer happens in the engine bay means you're garage engineering your car's thermal management system, sometimes it works out, sometimes it doesn't.

The OE headers will fail if you put more heat into them then stock, I wouldn't be surprised if we see *more NA OE headers fail down the road, it will just take longer for them to hit that fatigue point.
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Not trying to start shit either, but promote understanding of why parts fail. Can sub-par welds be the cause? Absolutely. Poor materials? Yes. Altering the thermal environment the part operates in? Just as logical.


A properly designed and manufactured header will not fail because of thermal stresses. A ceramic coating will reduce the max temperature delta and thus stress/strain due to differences in CTE between components.

Every header I've seen crack on here has been due to bad welds. Each OFH that cracked and was documented here showed a crack propagating from a fisheye in the weld. The OEM one looks to have cracked in the heat affected zone as well. Coatings have nothing to do with it as long as they're applied correctly. That's why is recommend getting the header coated from the manufacturer. OF doesn't offer that, so I went with JDL


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Old 05-04-2017, 05:18 PM   #31
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A properly designed and manufactured header will not fail because of thermal stresses. A ceramic coating will reduce the max temperature delta and thus stress/strain due to differences in CTE between components.

Every header I've seen crack on here has been due to bad welds. Each OFH that cracked and was documented here showed a crack propagating from a fisheye in the weld. The OEM one looks to have cracked in the heat affected zone as well. Coatings have nothing to do with it as long as they're applied correctly. That's why is recommend getting the header coated from the manufacturer. OF doesn't offer that, so I went with JDL


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If you want a header to last a long time with a good quality (read: effective) thermal coating, you need to do both the interior and exterior surface. Doing just the exterior will subject it to more thermal stress than if it were uncoated. You are basically creating a thermal barrier that prevents the header to dissipate heat.

As for reported OFH failures, I can count all of them on one hand. And we have sold close to 1000 of them in the past 4 years. And most of those failures were seen on units that were stolen and sold before they even went through the QA process which means they should not have even been sold in the first place. In this case, the unit lasted 2 years despite an improper implementation of a 2800F ceramic coating.

Years ago, we sold ceramic coated headers for the Subaru 2.5RS. The only thing was that the ceramic coating wasn't very effective. it looked nice but didn't do much in the way of thermal shielding. As a result, it was a pretty benign option. These days, there are ceramic coating options that work very well. And care must be taken in using them.
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Old 05-04-2017, 06:01 PM   #32
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Shiv@Openflash View Post
If you want a header to last a long time with a good quality (read: effective) thermal coating, you need to do both the interior and exterior surface. Doing just the exterior will subject it to more thermal stress than if it were uncoated. You are basically creating a thermal barrier that prevents the header to dissipate heat.

As for reported OFH failures, I can count all of them on one hand. And we have sold close to 1000 of them in the past 4 years. And most of those failures were seen on units that were stolen and sold before they even went through the QA process which means they should not have even been sold in the first place. In this case, the unit lasted 2 years despite an improper implementation of a 2800F ceramic coating.

Years ago, we sold ceramic coated headers for the Subaru 2.5RS. The only thing was that the ceramic coating wasn't very effective. it looked nice but didn't do much in the way of thermal shielding. As a result, it was a pretty benign option. These days, there are ceramic coating options that work very well. And care must be taken in using them.


Thanks for your insight shiv. I don't have any numbers to back up my gut feeling, but wouldn't tracking the car cause much higher header temps than the ceramic coating alone would? I might have to borrow an IR camera and compare external temp at the header and EGT temps between mine (coated) and my friend's car (uncoated) to see the how much of a difference we're talking about.


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Old 05-04-2017, 06:10 PM   #33
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Originally Posted by Yoshoobaroo View Post
Coatings have nothing to do with it as long as they're applied correctly. That's why is recommend getting the header coated from the manufacturer. OF doesn't offer that, so I went with JDL
Bingo. The resolution of this thread is that OP didn't properly apply the ceramic coating in a way that would prolong the life of his header and looking at it objectively it makes sense that it shortened the life of the header.

I don't think there is anybody in this thread saying coatings are bad.

If you draw a resistor network to calculate the heat transfer rates you will see that coating just the outside traps heat in the metal, you don't even have to know any equations or plug in numbers, it just doesn't allow the metal to reject heat to the engine bay, which is typically the goal, but as a consequence the header saw increased temperatures.

It's more common to see coating of the inside of the header for a reason, that's what will reduce not only engine bay temps but the temp of the metal as well lowering the thermal stresses.

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Old 05-04-2017, 06:52 PM   #34
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Originally Posted by strat61caster View Post
If you draw a resistor network to calculate the heat transfer rates you will see that coating just the outside traps heat in the metal, you don't even have to know any equations or plug in numbers, it just doesn't allow the metal to reject heat to the engine bay, which is typically the goal, but as a consequence the header saw increased temperatures.

Oh absolutely! No question about the mechanism at work, but depending of the coating performance, how much are we really talking about? If the delta is 50F, that won't do a thing considering running the car hard for long will bring the header temps up hundreds of degrees anyway. If it's 150F it might be a different story. It'd be nice to see come data for us engineering pedants. :P



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Old 05-04-2017, 07:07 PM   #35
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Oh absolutely! No question about the mechanism at work, but depending of the coating performance, how much are we really talking about? If the delta is 50F, that won't do a thing considering running the car hard for long will bring the header temps up hundreds of degrees anyway. If it's 150F it might be a different story. It'd be nice to see come data for us engineering pedants. :P



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Exhaust gas temps exiting the cylinder head (under load) are going to be around 1300-1600F. Temps will drop to 700-900F as exhaust leaves the tailpipe. Much of that missing heat gets transferred to the header and radiated off the outer surface of the header. If you have the outside surface of the header ceramic coated, maybe only a fraction of that heat will get radiated. So that means that *inner* surface temps will be much higher. You won't be able to measure that with a IR gun. I don't have any data but I would expect inner surface temps to easily be 200F more on a header that is ceramic coated. And the surface temps will also rise faster and reach heat saturation more frequently. This is where the extra stress comes from.
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Old 05-04-2017, 07:39 PM   #36
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Originally Posted by Shiv@Openflash View Post
Exhaust gas temps exiting the cylinder head (under load) are going to be around 1300-1600F. Temps will drop to 700-900F as exhaust leaves the tailpipe. Much of that missing heat gets transferred to the header and radiated off the outer surface of the header. If you have the outside surface of the header ceramic coated, maybe only a fraction of that heat will get radiated. So that means that *inner* surface temps will be much higher. You won't be able to measure that with a IR gun. I don't have any data but I would expect inner surface temps to easily be 200F more on a header that is ceramic coated. And the surface temps will also rise faster and reach heat saturation more frequently. This is where the extra stress comes from.


Makes sense. The IR data compared to the egt might tell a story, but I agree, the IR data itself is useless.


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Old 05-04-2017, 07:59 PM   #37
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Alternative to thermal coating header is to adjust radiator fan activation temps and vehicle speed setting in tune.

You biggest problem is bunderbonnet heat at low speeds in traffic, once your doing say ,60kmh plus there enough air flow to keep things cool.

Ive run uncoated header with adjusted fan settings no issues for three years
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Old 05-04-2017, 08:00 PM   #38
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Not a flame but I disagree with this completely (our first disagreement I think). Yes, there are a handful of threads where people complained that they had not heard something back quickly but they did receive replies. Of course I have no clue what your personal issue was so can't comment on that but since they are not a huge company with a massive staff I would expect delays if I was trying to deal with them. When you do get a response it is at least personal and right from the horses mouth not some customer service lackey that does nothing but relay info. For every single person that has claimed to have an issue on here there are probably a hundred or more with nothing but praise. People need to cut the guy some slack and have patience when dealing with any small but very popular and busy business. If this was a huge company I would agree in a heart beat but it isn't it is almost a one man show that is one of the leaders in the industry on this platform.


THIS ^ is customer service no matter how you look at it!

No problem, debate is a healthy part of democracy and freedom of speech, I respect that and you.


I won't go in to the sordid details of my bad customer service experience with OFT but I promise you, it wasn't good at all.
I now go to other sources(on the forum) for tuning help and advise. Seems strange that this needs to happen, going to somebody other than the vendor for help with their product?

Respect Shiv and his busy times however if you can't support your customers adequately, you need more staff to do so. It may cut in to your profit margin but will ensure positive feedback(and more sales) in the future.


Peace out
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Old 05-04-2017, 08:28 PM   #39
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Just to add this in here. I did make a mistake making the claim that it was just coated externally to shiv as that is what I thought and remember. I called jet hot and had them pull my receipt. They had me coated inside and out.. btw not looking for a change in his response I'm past it. Just for reference

Btw car strictly daily driver. 0 track time.

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Old 05-04-2017, 09:10 PM   #40
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Just to add this in here. I did make a mistake making the claim that it was just coated externally to shiv as that is what I thought and remember. I called jet hot and had them pull my receipt. They had me coated inside and out.. btw not looking for a change in his response I'm past it. Just for reference

Btw car strictly daily driver. 0 track time.
Dont bother repairing it. Cut bait.

At this point, ACE, JDL and PTuning have (in my opinion) the best exhaust manifolds for the twins. Sounds like you'll want to re-invest.
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Old 05-04-2017, 11:03 PM   #41
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Jdl uel was ordered today with ceramic coating. Lifetime warranty and good torque for daily driving, and good price. Already have adjusted ots tune 93 for these.once they come in I will install asap, and redo the exhaust. Will make custom exhaust, and add a flex pipe towards the middle where catback should meet front pipe. As A safety measure. New grimspeed gaskets, and vibrant gaskets for exhaust.
Going for simple, not to loud, and cut weight.

Thank you all for staying attentive.
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Old 05-04-2017, 11:08 PM   #42
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Alternative to thermal coating header is to adjust radiator fan activation temps and vehicle speed setting in tune.

You biggest problem is bunderbonnet heat at low speeds in traffic, once your doing say ,60kmh plus there enough air flow to keep things cool.

Ive run uncoated header with adjusted fan settings no issues for three years

I have now made the full adjustment as per your recommendation. I had the fans to kick on at a higher temp. But I lowered it even more as per your post. The fans will now be on under 60 kmh
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