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Tracking / Autocross / HPDE / Drifting What these cars were built for!


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Old 08-22-2012, 07:03 PM   #43
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I will weigh in on this as a race and DE instructor for over 10 years here is my take...

You are both correct.

The issue I have with Sims/Games is that a lot of the less mature folks who play them as "practice" do not use them as tools, but rather use them as games or as entertainment. The results of doing that are disastrous in real life. So IF and that's a big IF you take them for what they are and use them as rough tools, they can be beneficial. For me personally? Seat time is the #1 tool. I don't care if you are sitting in a student's car, or doing a DE or racing, the more time your ass is in a real seat the better you will be.

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Old 08-22-2012, 07:21 PM   #44
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Old 08-22-2012, 07:33 PM   #45
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Like everybody is saying, racing sims are tools. Its up to the user how they use the tool. You can certainly learn a lot of things using GT5 if used correctly. If you use it like an arcade game and just crashing into and pushing cars out of the way to win then of course you won't learn anything and even pick up some bad habits. I've also played iRacing and don't believe its head and shoulders above GT5. Don't forget GT Academy have turned a lot of regular GT5 sims player into professional racing drivers and they are doing quite well.
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Old 08-22-2012, 07:54 PM   #46
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If you use it like an arcade game and just crashing into and pushing cars out of the way to win then of course you won't learn anything and even pick up some bad habits.
Not sure if I should take this personally or these are just some random thoughts you're spilling. I don't think there are people stupid enough to think that way.
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I've also played iRacing and don't believe its head and shoulders above GT5.
I do. Tire model is ages ahead of GT5 in terms of realism.
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Don't forget GT Academy have turned a lot of regular GT5 sims player into professional racing drivers and they are doing quite well.
It's a PR event. Means exactly zero. And again, their task is to pick up people who are already skilled. Last year's US winner was a national-level autox-er before that. And he's now racing in a secondary series with pretty marginal success.
It's a good business move though, cause as this thread clearly shows, a lot of people think that games teach them how to become racecar drivers.
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Old 08-22-2012, 08:06 PM   #47
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Of course you are entitled to your opinion. All I'm saying is GT5 is the best $60 I've spend on a driver's learning tool and I'm sure a lot of other people will agree.
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Old 08-22-2012, 10:16 PM   #48
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The problem with GT and Forza is the Force Feedback is...or how you say it...severe lack of proper feel through the wheel...

Richard Burns Rally and GTR2 have really good FFB loading and steering where you know what the tires are doing and can drive around on the friction circle like in real life (nearly) and can feel the braking at work through the steering wheel as well. GT and Forza do not have that...

All sims lack the precise wheel feedback and cornering sensation through the chassis/suspension you get in real life though...
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Old 08-22-2012, 11:15 PM   #49
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[QUOTE=rice_classic;378767]I recommend you go on Amazon and buy this book. It breaks it all down and makes it very easy to understand.



I can recommend the same book. Read it before and after a DE with instructors.
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Old 08-23-2012, 12:07 AM   #50
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From the SPEED SECRETS 2 book and 1 example of games/sims helping a driver/racer:

Quote:
Originally Posted by Ross Bently@Speed Secrets 2
Computer simulation
Speaking of Jacques Villeneuve, he may have done more for the computer game/simulation industry than most people realize. you may have read that in his first season in Formula One he used computer games extensively to help learn the tracks that were new to him. Prior to going to Spa for the first time--generally accepted as the most difficult Grand Prix track--he practiced by driving lap after lap on the computer. What happened when he got there for the race? With a limited number of practice laps, he qualified on pole. At that moment, racer drivers around the world ran out and bought more computer games!

I have to admit to not having spent much time with computer games, although I would like to more, especially with the latest stuff that's out there. In fact, these computer games, and more realistically, simulation, can be a very useful adjunct to mental imagery.

I believe these simulations can be valuable in terms of helping a driver develop a virtual reality visualization, although there are a couple of limitations. First, of the three sensory inputs a race driver relies on (visual, auditory, and kinesthetic), simulations do a good job with two (visual and auditory) and a very limited, if any, job of the third (kinesthetic). Second, how much does driving an F1 car at Spa help a Formula Ford driver at Thunderhill? Mental rehearsal of driving one type of car on a specific track does not necessarily apply to another.

Having said that, there are things that a "sim driver" can practice that will help once on a real track. He can practice the ability to focus concentration for a period of time. He can also develop a fin sensitivity and control fo the steering wheel. And finally, he can practice learning. (bold is me) ....

Overall, I think simulation is another tool that race drivers can and should use to develop and maximize their on-track performance. just as relying solely on mental imagery, or practicing only in go-karts will limit your ability to learn, only using simulations will not result in you becoming the next World Champion. But combined with all the other tools a race driver has today, simulations are very valuable.

Jacque Villeneuve won his championship in 1997, just for technological reference.
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Old 08-24-2012, 01:07 PM   #51
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ft86Fan View Post
Like everybody is saying, racing sims are tools. Its up to the user how they use the tool. You can certainly learn a lot of things using GT5 if used correctly. If you use it like an arcade game and just crashing into and pushing cars out of the way to win then of course you won't learn anything and even pick up some bad habits. I've also played iRacing and don't believe its head and shoulders above GT5. Don't forget GT Academy have turned a lot of regular GT5 sims player into professional racing drivers and they are doing quite well.
Often times except in the highest level of racing (F1, etc) ability has little to do with racing and how well you do. Money or the Money behind you has a lot more to do with it. I am a Race Director for NASA, and there are lots of talented folks who can't afford the $500,000 car/crew/team or they would be out there winning in all kinds of road racing like ALMS, IMSA, Grand Am, Etc.

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Old 08-24-2012, 01:20 PM   #52
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^True dat.
Here's a good read on the subject.
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Old 09-26-2012, 12:15 AM   #53
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ØAs a Porsche/BMW driving instructor I agree with most of the points stated in earlier threads. When you sign up for a HPDE event there is typically a required ground school where they will talk you through all things necessary to prepare you for your first time on the track. Learn the track safety rules, learn the flags, understand the terminology needed to communicate with your instructor etc. On your first day at the track, clubs like Porsche and BMW allow students to be passengers in their Instructors cars and that’s a good way to learn the line around the track. It’s also a great way to experience advance driving. Your driving instructor does not start the day knowing you so you will need to demonstrate driving the line and car control before the more advanced instruction is provided. As an Instructor we see all kinds of people during HPDE events. When someone shows up prepared, leaves his egos at the gate, the student is usually happy at the end of the day. An instructor’s fear is someone showing up in a brand new really high HP car that just wants to go fast on their first session (we have a lot of story about this) and does not listen, but that an exception. Most events are full of happy students that come back because they had a good experience. By the way, you don’t necessary need to be a BMW or Porsche club member to sign up for their club events. Usually some type of membership with a associated club is required so check the rules. Motorsportsreg.com lists most of the driving events and contacts so that’s a good source for events and schedules.
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Old 09-26-2012, 10:00 AM   #54
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It's a PR event. Means exactly zero. And again, their task is to pick up people who are already skilled. Last year's US winner was a national-level autox-er before that. And he's now racing in a secondary series with pretty marginal success.
I guess you call marginal success what I would call huge success. Let's see, Bryan never road raced even once before the academy 1.5 years ago. Within his first full season he qualified twice on the pole on tracks he's never been to with a team just learning the 370z and typically runs DPs. At Indy he got spun out on lap 1 and was in last place and by the end of the same stint was back in the top 10. Marginal? Really?

I'll throw in a plug for iRacing. I've tried GT5, every Forza and a few others and I personally think its the best of them by far. It's also pretty cool as I've been able to race pro drivers on there and while you occasionally beat them often its obvious why they are Pros especially over a longer race.
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Old 09-26-2012, 12:25 PM   #55
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^Compared to other GTA winners, he's not doing too good. On an absolute scale it's a huge success for people familiar with real-life racing and who know how hard it is to get oneself a paid seat in a decent team in a decent series. For everyone else, who think that racing is mostly about skill, it's not too big of an accomplishment.
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Old 09-26-2012, 03:03 PM   #56
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For everyone else, who think that professional racing is mostly about skill, it's not necessarily so.
FTFY

I'm assuming that's what you mean because it almost seemed like you were saying racing isn't much about skill, which is categorically false.
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