New to FT86 - track/street questions

[boze_man]

Hey all- new member here. Great site! Been poking around it a bit…

I am looking to get back on the track after being away for almost 10 yrs. Lived in Houston about an hour from TWS and used to run HPDE’s with the LSR PCA in a street/track 964. Was a great track car, 247hp, lightly modded, track friendly, higher mileage, seats, harnesses, brakes etc. Great seat feel with ps delete, lsd, and just ABS. Fun car…

Sold the car to a buddy when the kiddos started to get into sports etc and we moved away. We live in South Jersey now about an hour from NJMP and with the kids in college/HS seems like a perfect time to get back on the track, plus the wife says I need a hobby! Oh well I should listen to her right?

Started looking for another Pcar but came across the 86 (BRZ) and DROVE one…WTF! great car, fun car, great feel…so now looking to purchase either used or new. This car would be track focused and street legal to start… Initially would run the car stock and only upgrade brake fluid and race pads. Anything else?

Read some threads here about the 2017+ BRZ with PP being a good starting point for track/street duty…so been shopping around:

Suby dealer who had a few on hand…2x 2017 brz limited w/pp and a 2018 with the 50th pkg and PP, all with discounts of around $2000-$3000 off MSRP. The 2018 has 2.9%...
But a yota dealer has a 2017 86 base with trd exhaust, trd wheels, trd spoiler for $4300 off MSRP! & a 2018 GT w/ TRD sways and lowering kit for $3430 off MSRP…are the TRD adds really worth anything over the brz PP?
Also there are a couple used low mileage base 2017 86’s around in the $18-$20k (<20k miles) and a 2017 brz limited w/ PP for $23k (30k miles).

So what the better platform to work off of? Should I try to focus on only cars with PP for a start or do I find a cheap solid base car to add brakes, suspension, etc to?

Thoughts on some of the deals above? Seems like I should be able to squeeze a bit more $ off of the new to get to almost used pricing...

Thanks in advance for the help! Bill

I love/hate the internet as you can research and be informed but can over analyze everything to death…lol

[kch]

Originally Posted by boze_man

Initially would run the car stock and only upgrade brake fluid and race pads. Anything else?

...

So what the better platform to work off of? Should I try to focus on only cars with PP for a start or do I find a cheap solid base car to add brakes, suspension, etc to?

For the first couple events, I would suggest brake pads, brake fluid, tires, camber bolts, alignment, and an oil cooler. These cars really need a lot of front camber if you want to get more than a couple weekends out of your tires.

As for PP vs non-PP, it all depends on what you expect to do with the car. The stock (non-PP) brake calipers can do pretty well with proper pads. If you ever foresee yourself upgrading to a BBK like the AP Sprint Kit, then the PP would be a waste of money. But if you'd rather keep things simple, the added heat capacity of the PP brakes certainly can't hurt.

Edit: I assume you heard about TWS? Shame. It was my favorite track.

Edit2: If I were in your position looking to get an 86 to track, I would go for a lightly used 2015 or 2016. They have the updated coil packs and valve fixes so they're a bit more reliable than 2013-14. If you ever plan to boost, maybe look at a 2017 because their motors have some added reinforcement. (Note that I have no actual information on whether 2017+ handle boost better.)

[justinco]

Welcome!

There are a dozen different ways you could go and I'm sure you will get as many replies with different options I would recommend sticking with a 2017+ car (having owned a '13 and '17) unless you are trying to get started on a small budget (doesn't seem like it).

Personally, I would skip a PP package car, as I would get better track oriented brakes anyways from the aftermarket. So, from your list I like the 86 with the TRD sway-bars and springs the best. It gives you an improved handling experience out of the box and stock brakes will work fine with the right pads/fluid.

Or, roll your own and buy a used car and add whatever parts you want as needed. In any case, I would go with a 2017+ for sure.

[Tristor]

I'm far from an expert here, so there's others that'll probably chime in that are more knowledgeable, but I'd advise that you plan ahead based on your budget. This is all just my personal opinion. At the very least I'd recommend you consider doing the following to take a stock 2018 BRZ to a state where it'll be competent on track and primarily limited by the driver rather than the car:


1. Better tires, possibly different wheels. (If you get a PP/tS it comes with better wheels, and maybe better tires). I'd recommend a 200tw extreme sport tire like a Yokohama AD08R, Direzza ZIII, or Hankook RS4, avoid RE71Rs because they don't have good durability on track although their grip is great. Wider is not better unless you are needing it to hold power.

2. Upgrade the brakes. (PP/tS come with Brembos already) At least to start out with you can get by with better fluid (Motul RBF660 is a good start, although a lot of people swear by Castrol SRF), braided brake lines, and good quality track pads (ask @CSG Mike for recommendations, but probably something like a Ferodo DS1.11 or a Carbotech XP10). You don't need a BBK on this car at stock power, but it can help cut some weight. The PP is a good value just for the wheels and brakes, honestly.


3. Cut weight. Get a rear seat delete kit (Shrader Performance makes a good one for a reasonable price), get rid of the pointless backseats. Empty all the junk out of the trunk. Empty out the glove box of everything but a tire gauge, your wheel lock key, and your registration paperwork. Ditch the cup holder in the center console. Consider buying a lightweight battery setup for ~$300 to cut another 25 pounds off the front.



4. Get low and get aligned. You can do coilovers + LCAs or you can keep it a little cheaper by doing lowering springs, camber bolts, and LCAs. RCE Yellows or T2s are a good perf/price point option. Get a performance alignment from a reputable local shop, not a shitty toe n go at a chain store.


5. Get and install an engine oil cooler. I recommend the Jackson Racing or Mishimoto kit, or make your own buying hoses/fittings/radiator/sandwich plate on a race parts website (Summit, et al).


6. Get on track.





Everything I've suggested will maintain the DD aspect of the car, with /some/ trade-offs in NVH, but will definitely make it a beast on track for what it is. It'll certainly be some of the most fun you've had for the money short of buying a Miata

[Mr.ac]

If you can get a performance pack get it. That's if you can't price out a cheaper deal than a normal 86 with aftermarket springs/struts/bbk. That's really all there is to the performance pack.

Then again.....if you want to pay $25-30k you can find better slightly older better cars than the 86/BRZ. Just saying.

[CSG Mike]

Do you know what you want out of the car? How extensively do you see yourself modifying it?

If this will be a track rat, start with a base model; the savings over the limited trim + PP will easily cover the differences in parts such as brakes, with your own choice in braking system.

I started with a base model. This is the result.

[ame]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9Gs4sRuNbX4&t=1s[/ame]

[HKz]

if you care about the best bang for your buck and don't mind sourcing the upgrades, then my vote goes for a used one for sure...there's always a couple of barely broken in used twins with a nice discount on the market from owners who didn't realize what they got themselves into ^^ I would only get a new one if ya got the money to blow..

[CSG Mike]

Originally Posted by Tristor

2. Upgrade the brakes. (PP/tS come with Brembos already) At least to start out with you can get by with better fluid (Motul RBF660 is a good start, although a lot of people swear by Castrol SRF), braided brake lines, and good quality track pads (ask @CSG Mike for recommendations, but probably something like a Ferodo DS1.11 or a Carbotech XP10). You don't need a BBK on this car at stock power, but it can help cut some weight. The PP is a good value just for the wheels and brakes, honestly.

A few clarifications here. BBK's generally add weight, which is mandatory to increase thermal capacity. A lighter BBK means less metal mass to absorb the same amount of kinetic energy, which means the rotors and pads get hotter, and have to shed the heat faster. This is a very double edged sword.

The OEM PP's brake system is significantly heavier than the base system's weight (iirc around 16 lbs?). Subaru is not stupid; they made a very conscious choice to increase the weight here. Likewise, look at much faster cars as an example; they never compromise the brakes for weight savings.

The PP is a fantastic value if you're already going to get the Limited trim, but the Limited trim + PP, over a base, for someone who doesn't want the limited features, is not worth it, IMO.

The difference in cost between a base and PP, covered my cost on CSG Brembo GT BBK, and a OEM Audio+ Reference 500Q audio system.

Yeah, I have a full audio system in my track car.

[Tristor]

Originally Posted by CSG Mike

A few clarifications here. BBK's generally add weight, which is mandatory to increase thermal capacity. A lighter BBK means less metal mass to absorb the same amount of kinetic energy, which means the rotors and pads get hotter, and have to shed the heat faster. This is a very double edged sword.

The OEM PP's brake system is significantly heavier than the base system's weight (iirc around 16 lbs?). Subaru is not stupid; they made a very conscious choice to increase the weight here. Likewise, look at much faster cars as an example; they never compromise the brakes for weight savings.

I was thinking about the weight savings from the lighter calipers vs base. I'm not sure about the weight of the PP brakes, but for instance an AP Racing Sprint or Endurance BBK are both lighter overall than the stock brakes despite the rotors being heavier because they have aluminum calipers w/ steel pistons vs steel calipers. I think the RR kits and others based on Wilwood Forged SuperLites are also lighter than stock for the calipers.


Of course the rotors are heavier and larger than stock to increase thermal mass. At least in the case of the AP Racing Sprint BBK the weight difference vs base is that they're lighter overall. I'm sure this is not the case always though.

[CSG Mike]

Originally Posted by Tristor

I was thinking about the weight savings from the lighter calipers vs base. I'm not sure about the weight of the PP brakes, but for instance an AP Racing Sprint or Endurance BBK are both lighter overall than the stock brakes despite the rotors being heavier because they have aluminum calipers w/ steel pistons vs steel calipers. I think the RR kits and others based on Wilwood Forged SuperLites are also lighter than stock for the calipers.


Of course the rotors are heavier and larger than stock to increase thermal mass. At least in the case of the AP Racing Sprint BBK the weight difference vs base is that they're lighter overall. I'm sure this is not the case always though.

While weight reduction is universally a performance increase in terms of cornering and acceleration, weight savings via the braking system is one area where a compromise is never made; brakes are a key safety system. Perhaps the only exception to this, would be carbon-ceramic rotors, but carbon ceramic rotors are almost never used in racing because they come with their own set of issue, and the upkeep cost is exorbitant.

The AP Sprint/Enduro calipers are much lighter than stock, but the rotors used with those systems are also much lighter than stock. Heat from braking goes into the rotors to be dissipated. While those Sprint/Enduro rotors can dissipate heat MUCH faster than stock, the higher temp spikes seen also mean that the disk is now being exposed to much, MUCH larger temperature swings, creating thermal based stressed.

What happens when you throw a hot glass into cold water? It cracks. Why does it crack? Because of thermal stress. Now imagine doing that to your rotor over and over and over on a race track. Versus, throwing a warm glass into cold water, and not having any issues.

The lighter caliper is a benefit for sure though. Zero issues there.

Also, nice threadripper! Here's mine https://www.instagram.com/p/Bc8y2-ehG4F

[boze_man]

Originally Posted by kch

Edit: I assume you heard about TWS? Shame. It was my favorite track.

Thanks for the feedback and yes heard about TWS...great track. Did you see the pics after the hurricane were they used the track for flood cars?

[boze_man]

Originally Posted by justinco

Welcome! THANKS!

Or, roll your own and buy a used car and add whatever parts you want as needed. In any case, I would go with a 2017+ for sure.

leaning in that direction...used base as a platform to start with...

[boze_man]

Originally Posted by Tristor

1. Better tires, possibly different wheels.
2. Upgrade the brakes. did i see on the forum using GT3 ducts from suncoast for 30$?
3. Cut weight. Get a rear seat delete kit (Shrader Performance makes a good one for a reasonable price), get rid of the pointless backseats. like it
4. Get low and get aligned. Get a performance alignment from a reputable local shop, not a shitty toe n go at a chain store. any shops in south jersey?
5. Get and install an engine oil cooler. necessary for initial track time?
6. Get on track. !!!

It'll certainly be some of the most fun you've had for the money short of buying a Miata and a much better look/size plus a factory roof over your head

thanks for the choices...will add to shopping list

[boze_man]

Originally Posted by Mr.ac

Then again.....if you want to pay $25-30k you can find better slightly older better cars than the 86/BRZ. Just saying.

Agree...as I creep up into 25-30k level makes it a tough decision...poor me, a 1st world problem lol ...but at $15-20k def 86...

To me the 86 platform is a hidden gem with lower consumables, coupe, japanese reliability, and a decent look. The track presence will continue to grow, how could it not?