Wheel stud/lug nuts issues: need recommendations

[TMF]

I'm making this thread in the tracking/autox/etc subforum because I'm looking for wheel studs/lug nuts that can stand up to racing, frequent wheel changes, using an impact, etc.

Here's what I'm looking for:

1. Recommendations for quality wheel studs. ARP, Vorshlag, or ??? The Vorshlags are appealing because they are not as ridiculously long as the ARP's.
2. Recommendations for quality lug nuts. I'm not convinced that Muteki SR48's are suitable for racing or using them with an impact wrench. I would prefer lug nuts that are not spline drive and can use a 17mm socket.
3. To use, or not to use anti-seize? I know the general consensus is "NO!" but if you use only a little bit, lower your torque value, check them frequently, clean threads and re-apply occasionally...can it hurt?

I know the usual answer is: ARP's! But I saw this thread about a dude snapping ARP's. Not sure if this is an anomaly, user error, or ??
http://www.ft86club.com/forums/showthread.php?t=67503

My backstory:

This started a few weeks ago, when I snapped a wheel stud on the front when removing a wheel. Stock wheel studs, and it was a Project Kics R40 lug nut. Started backing off it off (with my impact driver) then seized. Had to use a breaker bar to snap it off. Upon inspection, that rotating collar on the R40 lug nut had cracked. Not sure if this was related, but I've been using these lug nuts for a few years on this car and my previous STI, so I bought new lug nuts. I purchased Muteki SR48, 17mm lug nuts and started using those.

Fast forward to last weekend (first time removing these stupid Muteki's): I snapped 2 more wheels studs

This one was similar to the 1st snapped stud...started backing off with the impact, then seized. Again, had to use a breaker bar to snap off the stud.

Next wheel, I try to be smarter. One of the lug nuts didn't come off very smoothly with the impact. So, I pulled out my thread restorer kit and I chased the threads on the rough wheel stud (threads looked damaged) and I also chased the threads on that lug nut.

I figured I might as well double check the remaining lug nuts to ensure they were fine. I was threading on (by hand) and removing each lug nut on a another "known" "good" wheel stud on that hub. On about the 3rd lug nut, I started to get lazy...I threaded it on by hand (went on perfectly fine) and decided to back it off with my impact. Low and behold, it seized when backing it off! Again, had to break out the breaker bar to break that stupid stud off.

So is it these stupid Muteki lug nuts? Is it because I'm using an impact wrench and Muteki says not to? Is it just the crappy stock wheel studs?
Regardless, I can't keep on snapping wheel studs...I need a better solution.

And in case anyone questions my process for changing wheels, it is as follows:

1. Remove lug nuts with impact wrench at highest setting (~200 ft-lbs, Milwaukee M18 Fuel 3/8" impact wrench).
2. Put on different wheel, start each lug nut on the wheel stud by hand.
3. Tighten lug nuts in star pattern, with impact wrench at medium setting (tightens lug nuts to roughly 50 ft-lbs).
4. Drop car down so wheels are just barely touching the ground, and torque to 90 ft-lbs in star pattern (Husky torque wrench).
5. Drop car all the way down, drive on. I usually re-torque the lug nuts to 90 ft-lbs after driving the car for a bit, and I normally always check them at the track or autox.

Thanks in advance!

[redlined600]

Both 949 racing and counter space garage make nice lug nuts.

Iirc 949 are aluminum and csg steel.

I used the 949 lugs on the Miata for years with no issues.

[k3v]

ARP makes stock length wheel studs. Google this: B01KHLJ8CM

I bought a set just because of all the talk of broken wheel studs.
I've never snapped a wheel stud on this or any other car I've owned (yet). My cordless craftsman impact has (barely) enough torque to break lug nuts loose. When I torque them down, I know 3 clicks is a few lbs shy of 80 ft/lbs, so I never over torque my lugs.

[strat61caster]

fyi ARP has short studs for Subaru's now

http://arp-bolts.com/kits/ARPkit-det...?RecordID=5105

But I wouldn't look down on anyone looking for a cheaper option, the price does make me wince.

I have the long ones all around, after about a year one corner went a little wonky (nuts no longer going on without effort, threads stretched or rounded? idk), replaced those and swapped to new lugs, Gorilla extended lugs and have been pretty good this year.

I think the biggest key to stud longevity is cleanliness, don't allow the wheel to drag on the threads, you get metal shavings which gum up in the threads until they strip, which is actually what you're experiencing, the threads get contaminated and chewed up, you're not snapping the lugs, you're snapping the lugs after the threads strip to get them off and fix them.

Just my two cents, best of luck.

[TMF]

Thanks guys, I appreciate the input. Looks like ARP actually has 3 different lengths...1.75" (stock length), 1.95", and 2.5". The 2.5's are obnoxiously long, but it would be nice to have the option to run spacers if I need. Not sure how long of a spacer that the 1.95's will support...so I'll probably just do the 2.5's. And it makes it easier to put the wheels on

Originally Posted by strat61caster

I think the biggest key to stud longevity is cleanliness, don't allow the wheel to drag on the threads, you get metal shavings which gum up in the threads until they strip, which is actually what you're experiencing, the threads get contaminated and chewed up, you're not snapping the lugs, you're snapping the lugs after the threads strip to get them off and fix them.

I think you're spot on here. On the final stud that snapped, it must have been metal shavings that caused it to seize. I think cleaning the threads will need to become a standard maintenance step.

I like the looks of the CSG lug nuts. Looks like they have both aluminum and steel, and I've generally heard that steel is better for racing applications. That said, CSG claims that their aluminum lug nuts stand up to racing.

Question for @CSG Mike: The website states, "Impacting lug nuts is ALWAYS NOT RECOMMENDED."

Is this just stated so that people don't zip on lug nuts with an air impact and over torque them? I presume that it is "safe" to take off lug nuts with an impact, and install with an impact as long as it is at a low torque setting? I swap wheel a ton...I don't have time for doing it by hand lol.

[Stang70Fastback]

I still don't understand how so many people have so many stud issues. I've had my car over three years now. Three seasons of autocross means a bajillion wheel swaps, and winter wheel swaps, and I'm still using the OEM studs, lol.

[TMF]

Originally Posted by Stang70Fastback

I still don't understand how so many people have so many stud issues. I've had my car over three years now. Three seasons of autocross means a bajillion wheel swaps, and winter wheel swaps, and I'm still using the OEM studs, lol.

Congrats, you've just jinxed yourself. I didn't have an issue for over 2 years with this car (nor any other track car that I've had), and then...3 issues in one month!

[TrqlessWonder]

Not sure the lugs have anything to do with it, unless you're somehow getting dirt/sand on the inside and then putting them on. I'm getting buy on the cheapie spline drives brand x you'll find for $15 (with the key) at literally any PepAdvanceZoneQuest.

Stock studs do have a fatigue life, and it's not impressive. And just like headlight bulbs, it's kinda smart to replace them in sets. If one went, the others aren't far behind. I broke one off, called it a day, went home on four lugs, and snapped off two more when taking the rest off that afternoon.

Particularly with the stock studs, if the bolt holes rest on the threads before you get it fully seated or fully off, that's a chance to smoosh some threads down when the bolt hole scrapes along the top of the threads. (edit: echoing strat61caster)

On your process, a couple of suggestions:

Don't use the impact to break them free. Especially not at it's "Hulk SMASH" setting. Get out your breaker bar, and just like when you set it down, break them loose before the car gets in the air all the way. Not only will this break them free more smoothly, you'll know if it's taking more force than it should. I've gotten some advance warning that the stud is only good for 1-2 more cycles. You can't prolong it forever, but you won't be left wondering which dealership is both open on sunday, and carrying your studs. If your situation is anything like mine, the answer is none. 1 extra cycle means you can go to work for the week while the parts take forever to arrive.

When you re-torque, are you only applying force in the clockwise direction, or are you backing it off 1/8-1/4 turn, and then torquing again? One of those is re-torquing, the other is over-torquing.

Anti-seize won't do much for galled threads, that, and the ease of getting the corrected torque value wrong means you maybe shouldn't try. Look up the formulas. It's not "smidgen = 10% reduction."

[TrqlessWonder]

Originally Posted by TMF

Congrats, you've just jinxed yourself. I didn't have an issue for over 2 years with this car (nor any other track car that I've had), and then...3 issues in one month!

Yep. I said something to that effect, and then a few weeks later, they started letting go. The over/under on their life is ~80 cycles.

eta: the fronts will go first

[strat61caster]

Originally Posted by Stang70Fastback

I still don't understand how so many people have so many stud issues. I've had my car over three years now. Three seasons of autocross means a bajillion wheel swaps, and winter wheel swaps, and I'm still using the OEM studs, lol.

Honestly I was lazy taking my wheels on and off the first ~2-3 years of ownership before stripping a stud, I wouldn't be surprised if I could put on stock studs or cheap studs now and use them trouble free for a few years like you have now that I've learned my lesson.

But the ARP's are on now, unless they all get borked at once I'll probably stick with them.

[M0nk3y]

I have 1 year on my OE Studs, 5000 miles on the car.

I should replace with different studs, but I'm too lazy. Maybe this winter

[lutfy]

I had the dealer overtorque my front lugs and one of the lugs ended up being stretched badly (front). I wont take names but I tried a certain brand (for the fronts only) and almost all of them (yes all 10) got stretched!! Not a pound over 89lbs.... When the wheels were hot (after track to put on stickier tires for TT final round) the lug nuts were sticking like crazy.

Fast forward (I got the refund for the said lugs but lost time in the process) and ended up getting ARPs. NOT A SINGLE issue.

Lutfy

[mav1178]

Why in the world do you need the maximum setting for an impact gun to remove lug nuts, especially when they are torqued by hand?

Your lug removal method is no better than the average mechanic.

Edit: if you are constantly cross-threading via the same method, you need to change how you take off and put on your lug nuts.

[TMF]

Originally Posted by TrqlessWonder

Not sure the lugs have anything to do with it, unless you're somehow getting dirt/sand on the inside and then putting them on. I'm getting buy on the cheapie spline drives brand x you'll find for $15 (with the key) at literally any PepAdvanceZoneQuest.

Stock studs do have a fatigue life, and it's not impressive. And just like headlight bulbs, it's kinda smart to replace them in sets. If one went, the others aren't far behind. I broke one off, called it a day, went home on four lugs, and snapped off two more when taking the rest off that afternoon.

Particularly with the stock studs, if the bolt holes rest on the threads before you get it fully seated or fully off, that's a chance to smoosh some threads down when the bolt hole scrapes along the top of the threads. (edit: echoing strat61caster)

On your process, a couple of suggestions:

Don't use the impact to break them free. Especially not at it's "Hulk SMASH" setting. Get out your breaker bar, and just like when you set it down, break them loose before the car gets in the air all the way. Not only will this break them free more smoothly, you'll know if it's taking more force than it should. I've gotten some advance warning that the stud is only good for 1-2 more cycles. You can't prolong it forever, but you won't be left wondering which dealership is both open on sunday, and carrying your studs. If your situation is anything like mine, the answer is none. 1 extra cycle means you can go to work for the week while the parts take forever to arrive.

When you re-torque, are you only applying force in the clockwise direction, or are you backing it off 1/8-1/4 turn, and then torquing again? One of those is re-torquing, the other is over-torquing.

Anti-seize won't do much for galled threads, that, and the ease of getting the corrected torque value wrong means you maybe shouldn't try. Look up the formulas. It's not "smidgen = 10% reduction."

Thanks, I appreciate the info. I think my snapped studs have been a combination of stress, and some (like the last one) was due to metal shards or something jamming the threads and causing it to seize. Then I had to break the stud to get the lug off.

Good point on torquing...I guess I would be "over-torquing". I will try backing them off 1/4-1/2 turn and then re-torquing.

And my Milwaukee is only the 3/8 drive, which isn't really "hulk smash" strength (200 ft-lbs max). I can tell when the threads are getting bad because the impact clicks/hammers the whole time that I'm backing off the lug nut...normally it just hammers at first, and then spins off easily/freely. When it is impacting off the whole way, then I know I might be in for a long night.

Originally Posted by mav1178

Why in the world do you need the maximum setting for an impact gun to remove lug nuts, especially when they are torqued by hand?

Your lug removal method is no better than the average mechanic.

Edit: if you are constantly cross-threading via the same method, you need to change how you take off and put on your lug nuts.

It's a cordless impact, and per the above, it's only 200 ft-lbs. The mid-torque setting on my 3/8 Milwaukee will not break free the lug nuts, but the highest setting does.

And I didn't list my lug removal method to make me sound like some sort of genius. I more listed it so people don't come in here in and say...."are you sure you're not doing something wrong when you put the wheels on??" I was just trying to show that I'm not a complete idiot and avoid some pointless posts in the thread.

And no, none of these lug nuts have been cross threaded. I always put them on by hand to ensure they are not cross threaded. I'm assuming the lug nuts have seized due to damaged threads, contamination from metal shards, dirt, etc, or just over-heat cycled.