Nameless Performance Equal Length Stepped Header

[OrbitalEllipses]

Originally Posted by mad_sb

You and me both I am planning on the nameless headers, nameless over/down pipe combo with high-flow cat and probably the hemholtz..... I'm still undecided on the catback.. I'm worried the perrin with be too loud with the headers and the invidia q300 will be too restrictive... and the ISIS is already louder than the resonated perrin but quieter than the non-resonated perrin

I'm gonna talk to jason next week about the catted over/down combo and the offset axleback to see what he has to say about the volume and if they have tested any other full catbacks with the front pipe.

I have this. VERY live-able. Idles quietly. Sounds great when you mash the skinny pedal. Does NOT drone.

Edit: I should note I have the optional Helmholtz in the downpipe.

[balance]

Nameless, How about some pictures of this fantastic header?

Regarding the mid-range torque/power dip, here is what the chief engineer, Mr. Tetsuya Tada had to say in a recent interview with the Japanese car magazine "Revspeed";

-The torque dip has been set up intentionally-

Although it is technologically removable, removing the dip would only worsen the booming noise reducing the fun. Instead, we rather focused on the efficient and lively delivery of peak power. Conversely, if you drive the car below the dip sector, you get a very good gas mileage. We have been getting positive feedback from the customers that they are able to get close to the advertised gas mileage of '13 Km/Liter' when they use the car for commuting purposes.

[ahausheer]

Originally Posted by balance

Nameless, How about some pictures of this fantastic header?

Regarding the mid-range torque/power dip, here is what the chief engineer, Mr. Tetsuya Tada had to say in a recent interview with the Japanese car magazine "Revspeed";

-The torque dip has been set up intentionally-

Although it is technologically removable, removing the dip would only worsen the booming noise reducing the fun. Instead, we rather focused on the efficient and lively delivery of peak power. Conversely, if you drive the car below the dip sector, you get a very good gas mileage. We have been getting positive feedback from the customers that they are able to get close to the advertised gas mileage of '13 Km/Liter' when they use the car for commuting purposes.

Got a link?
Wonder if this indicates that the dip is due to both software and hardware (headers)?

[sw20kosh]

That is the most idiotic thing I have ever heard. What were they thinking? This is a sports car I don't want a 15-20 ftlbs drop in the middle of my power band so that I can have less "booming" and slightly better gas mileage.

This dip is an abomination and if I had seen a dyno before buying the car I seriously question if I would have bought it right away. I've had an hpde instructor drive the car on the track and say "whats up with the power kill in the mid rpm range? Feels like fuel cut or something."

/rant over

[balance]

No link; I did word-to-word translation of what's written on the magazine copy I bought in Japan a few weeks ago. Don't worry, I'm pretty fluent in Japanese.

Knowing the virtue of indirectness of Japanese language and culture, I think that he was trying to allude that there is not much to gain by removing the dip.

[balance]

Originally Posted by sw20kosh

That is the most idiotic thing I have ever heard. What were they thinking? This is a sports car I don't want a 15-20 ftlbs drop in the middle of my power band so that I can have less "booming" and slightly better gas mileage.

This dip is an abomination and if I had seen a dyno before buying the car I seriously question if I would have bought it right away. I've had an hpde instructor drive the car on the track and say "whats up with the power kill in the mid rpm range? Feels like fuel cut or something."

/rant over

I feel ya. But, not everyone redlines the car at every opportunity there is. If there is not much to gain by removing the dip and more to gain in the way it currently is in perspective, then the dip may be justifiable.

[Dimman]

Originally Posted by balance

Nameless, How about some pictures of this fantastic header?

Regarding the mid-range torque/power dip, here is what the chief engineer, Mr. Tetsuya Tada had to say in a recent interview with the Japanese car magazine "Revspeed";

-The torque dip has been set up intentionally-

Although it is technologically removable, removing the dip would only worsen the booming noise reducing the fun. Instead, we rather focused on the efficient and lively delivery of peak power. Conversely, if you drive the car below the dip sector, you get a very good gas mileage. We have been getting positive feedback from the customers that they are able to get close to the advertised gas mileage of '13 Km/Liter' when they use the car for commuting purposes.

Dyno kind of shows the exact opposite, though.

Shit-ton of low-end torque (for a 2.0L NA), normal torque in the 'dip', a nice flat mid-high shelf, then drops rapidly over 7k.

[Dimman]

Originally Posted by johnbradley

Here is an example of what I am talking about with the torque "regression" as someone called it-



No other changes other than a second pull. The first pull (blue) is immediately following a flash, the red following that. The advance mulitplier was lower on the blue which explains most of it, but additive timing kept the over all timing within a degree. If the dip was limited to that amount every pull then you would never know what was going on unless you were being picky.

Shot in the dark #2:

Can you log EGTs on the car?

There was talk in the D4-S thread that the ECU will try to control/change fuel/ignition strategy to adjust EGT to preserve the catalyst. Could be in the unknown maps, maybe?

EGT can affect the local speed of sound which will simulate header length changes. And this looks like a 'shift' that we see in the headers that slightly change lengths from factory.

[mad_sb]

No factory EGT sensor, therefore no way for the ECU to monitor EGT and adjust based on it.. Regardless, if it were adjusting you would see it in the final logged values, assuming the parameters being logged are the final values after compensations etc. Only EcuTek can comment on if the logged timing values are the final values.

Again, JB stated this is not something that changes over time. 1st run, dip tuned out, second run through n_th run dip is back but with the same peak power and torque numbers.

I'm starting to think it is hitting a torque limit but not setting a code.. I assume if you pull the negative cable to reset the ecu without doing a reflash.. the power wold return for the first run after the reset. The Rom does have calculated torque tables that are not part of the DBW setup so i would assume there is a torque limit table as well. I'll PM JB and see if he tried lower the calculated torque tables.

Originally Posted by Dimman

Shot in the dark #2:

Can you log EGTs on the car?

There was talk in the D4-S thread that the ECU will try to control/change fuel/ignition strategy to adjust EGT to preserve the catalyst. Could be in the unknown maps, maybe?

EGT can affect the local speed of sound which will simulate header length changes. And this looks like a 'shift' that we see in the headers that slightly change lengths from factory.

[Dimman]

Originally Posted by mad_sb

No factory EGT sensor, therefore no way for the ECU to monitor EGT and adjust based on it.. Regardless, if it were adjusting you would see it in the final logged values, assuming the parameters being logged are the final values after compensations etc. Only EcuTek can comment on if the logged timing values are the final values.

Again, JB stated this is not something that changes over time. 1st run, dip tuned out, second run through n_th run dip is back but with the same peak power and torque numbers.

I'm starting to think it is hitting a torque limit but not setting a code.. I assume if you pull the negative cable to reset the ecu without doing a reflash.. the power wold return for the first run after the reset. The Rom does have calculated torque tables that are not part of the DBW setup so i would assume there is a torque limit table as well. I'll PM JB and see if he tried lower the calculated torque tables.

If you look at the 'regression', though it's not all loss. A tune that can keep the low-end increase from ~2600-3200 rpm from the second (red graph) run and the 3200-3900 increase (blue graph) from the first, it would be amazing.

But it is a somewhat symmetric gain/loss which seems a lot like wave effects. If, hypothetically, it were acoustics causing it, it would be from either changing the distance the wave travels (header/exhaust lengths which hasn't changed) or changing the wave speed (temperature changes local speed of sound, which could change).

The EGT could be extrapolated from O2, known fuel, and ignition on a table?

Edit: Also cams, though you mentioned they can log target and actual positions so this could be ruled out.
An actual EGT log could be handy.

@arghx7 is the guy that mentioned the catalyst protection strategy. Also a really smart guy and any insight he could offer would be appreciated.

[mad_sb]

Originally Posted by Dimman

If you look at the 'regression', though it's not all loss. A tune that can keep the low-end increase from ~2600-3200 rpm from the second (red graph) run and the 3200-3900 increase (blue graph) from the first, it would be amazing.

For sure. I think the dip in the first place is a result of both factory tuning and stock compromises in the intake and exhaust design. I believe Nameless can build a header that eliminates the dip with proper tuning.. that is why I have money burning a hole in my wallet

Originally Posted by Dimman

The EGT could be extrapolated from O2, known fuel, and ignition on a table?

Edit: Also cams, though you mentioned they can log target and actual positions so this could be ruled out.
An actual EGT log could be handy.

@arghx7 is the guy that mentioned the catalyst protection strategy. Also a really smart guy and any insight he could offer would be appreciated.

For sure the factory mapping is based in some part on catalyst life.. However, I don't believe the OEM would attempt to implement a feedback loop without the ability to monitor the desired target directly. I could be completely wrong though.

I guess my whole point is, we don't really need to speculate. The parameters that could change to affect the power output are all log gable (again assuming ecutek is logging final, or output to say it another way, values). Once we can identify what changes from the 1st run to the subsequent runs we can figure out why it changed.

I'm sure @johnbradley will get a handle on it in short order and we will all be able to enjoy a fat torque curve and great gains across the rev range.

In the mean time we should start a pool on what the actual culprit is. My money is on either cam timing or a torque limit that ecutek has removed the CEL for.

[Dimman]

Originally Posted by mad_sb

For sure. I think the dip in the first place is a result of both factory tuning and stock compromises in the intake and exhaust design. I believe Nameless can build a header that eliminates the dip with proper tuning.. that is why I have money burning a hole in my wallet




For sure the factory mapping is based in some part on catalyst life.. However, I don't believe the OEM would attempt to implement a feedback loop without the ability to monitor the desired target directly. I could be completely wrong though.

I guess my whole point is, we don't really need to speculate. The parameters that could change to affect the power output are all log gable (again assuming ecutek is logging final, or output to say it another way, values). Once we can identify what changes from the 1st run to the subsequent runs we can figure out why it changed.

I'm sure @johnbradley will get a handle on it in short order and we will all be able to enjoy a fat torque curve and great gains across the rev range.

In the mean time we should start a pool on what the actual culprit is. My money is on either cam timing or a torque limit that ecutek has removed the CEL for.

Cam timing is my first guess, as well.

But the high-low 'reverse' is strange. I would have expected the first run to be all high, if it were only cam timing, though.

Personally, I think the Hydra EMS may be a better tuning tool for parts development if it bypasses the stock ECU for engine control because it's looking like Ecutek's incomplete map definitions is interfering with hard parts R&D.

[OrbitalEllipses]

Originally Posted by Dimman

Cam timing is my first guess, as well.

But the high-low 'reverse' is strange. I would have expected the first run to be all high, if it were only cam timing, though.

Personally, I think the Hydra EMS may be a better tuning tool for parts development if it bypasses the stock ECU for engine control because it's looking like Ecutek's incomplete map definitions is interfering with hard parts R&D.

@Element Tuning could chime in on Hydra EMS. I'd be interested to see what his tuning looks like though I have no interest in a standalone at this time.

Edit: Weird I thought Phil was a member here.

[Fenrir]

Originally Posted by Dimman

Cam timing is my first guess, as well.

But the high-low 'reverse' is strange. I would have expected the first run to be all high, if it were only cam timing, though.

Personally, I think the Hydra EMS may be a better tuning tool for parts development if it bypasses the stock ECU for engine control because it's looking like Ecutek's incomplete map definitions is interfering with hard parts R&D.

Doubt it'll be an option, because of:

"In partnership with Element Tuning and Hydra EMS will be offering the Toyota FRS/Subaru BRZ PNP Nemesis 2.7 unit for an extremely low introductory price of $1899, a savings of more than $500! Starting April 1st, 2013, pricing on this model will retail for $2400."

Not many people are going to spend that kind of cash on engine management for these cars. I understand there's benefits for R&D, but most people who get this header and a tune are going with ECUtek, so it doesn't make sense to tell your customers "You'll need to drop an extra $2,400 if you want this part to work properly."

Like OrbitalEllipses said though, there might be something to learn comparing methods between the two.