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Engine, Exhaust, Transmission Discuss the FR-S | 86 | BRZ engine, exhaust and drivetrain.


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Old 06-20-2012, 03:48 PM   #71
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Hanzo, if you heard the back story as to why we call ourselves Nameless you might have some further appreciation of our company. We call ourselves Nameless Performance for two reasons: One, we heavily involve our customers in our development process and didn't feel right putting our own names on our company when we have multiple engineers, designers, manufacturing experts and enthusiasts as customers who heavily influence the direction we take our product line. Two, it's a sardonic tongue in cheek jab at the flood of emerging market 'no-name' products the flood the market. We're the exact opposite of that. And over one thousand exhaust customers in the last year have taken us seriously and been extremely pleased with the results. We have an excellent reputation in the Subaru community. Feel free to search details of our company over on NASIOC for a full history of our growth as a company.


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I was already leaning towards grabbing a full exhaust system from Tainen's vids but I think this pushes me over... once I save up the cash
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Old 06-20-2012, 05:29 PM   #72
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All of these posts regarding scavenging and all sorts of witchcraft is way above my comprehension. With that said, I do prefer a bit more torque down low, even if it sacrifices a bit of power up top. I spend maybe 15% of the time above 6k rpms anyway. Usable power is what Im about.
This has to be talked about when creating a efficient header for a NA application.
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Old 06-20-2012, 05:32 PM   #73
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This has to be talked about when creating a efficient header for a NA application.
Absolutely, I know the importance of it, but Im lost once numbers start being spit out.
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Old 06-20-2012, 06:24 PM   #74
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Intuitively I think that a good design (ie equal length and routing) would offset the possible small losses in a smaller stepped design. So far it is the direction I'm leaning. Either a 1.5-1.625 or a triple step 1.5-1.625-1.375. Biasing peak HP at 6000rpm our software said 1.375-1.500-1.625!!! 7500 it indicated 1.500-1.625. But we're doing a few major assumptions on camshaft profile as well as lift, which no-one has at this point. I got the valve sizes, I talked to the guys at Brian Crower to discuss what their thoughts were given their experience with naturally aspirated Subarus and we made the best guess for the information we had on hand. I've searched every FSM and had our contacts at 2-3 major dealerships help in that search and found nothing.

We also used the other data available: What the factory used. While I doubt a lot of the factory's reasoning for a lot of their design concepts, header diameter doesn't have any 'reason' to change the bias for economy or engine behavior for the most part. Now, why they ran an unequal length design (32% variance between Y lengths) from the factory when they could have accomplished exactly what we did is beyond me...but then again, Subaru sends the US insanely unequal length headers for the STi and the JDM model gets EL header w/ Twin Scroll turbo.

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I would keep the peak power to around 7k....dropping it to 6k would make shifts drop into that torque hole.....unless it can be tuned out?
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Old 06-20-2012, 10:05 PM   #75
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I'm glad to see another parts company doing actual manufacturing. It seems so often the big companies skimp on the enigneering...or don't care...or their over head and penny pinchers affect the outcome and cost of the final product!!

I'd always done my manifold designs with either excel or matlab...and Ricardo on occasion but it's pricey and I don't think you really get that much more from it...though I'm now just focused on internals (rods, pistons, cams, etc...).

I also like the 'nameless' name
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Old 06-20-2012, 10:37 PM   #76
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Good stuff

I'll throw down my opinions/desires.

1) I don't deal with emissions testing, so I would prefer catless header, but I'll combine it with your catted midpipe (I also hate the smell of raw exhaust)
2) My primary use for the car is daily driving because I take the Miata to the track. But I would appreciate a design that balances out the gains. Or I guess another way to say it is a design that keeps the curve fairly linear. Sure I'm not in the upper rev range much but I don't like lulls in power delivery. They're hard for me to predict and plan around when making my inputs to the car.
Someone let me know if that doesn't make sense - I'm probably not explaining it well.

BTW I have no experience with Nameless and I'll admit the name made me kind of ignore other people's posts about your exhausts (only so much time I can devote to ft86club). What reeled me in though were your intelligent, detailed, and transparent posts about your products. Keep that up and I'm sure Nameless will make a name for itself (no pun intended) in the ft86 community as well!
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Old 06-20-2012, 10:40 PM   #77
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I'm using an MS Works spreadsheet... For phasing all that I do is reset the LSA/advance/retard points manually within the range of the AVCS.

Plus I'm trying to focus on the acoustic tuning, and even with accurate phasing to identify the location and duration of overlap, I still don't know the shape/amplitude of wave returns anyways. Nor the effective pressure differential between the cylinder and primary tubes. Nor temperature gradient through the system. So I start with the general estimates for wave and gas speed/temp/pressure then do some low and high estimates through the system.

Like tossing Nerf hand grenades on an accuracy/effectiveness scale, but whatever...
Some kind of ballpark estimate is better than nothing, but the software that can actually do the job is very, very expensive. It costs more than a low volume performance enthusiast application can support. You would need a GT Power license and a proprietary model for it. Those can take into account the pulse tuning and valve timing effects for scavenging. I'm sure Toyota/Subaru has these models under lock-and-key.
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Old 06-20-2012, 10:46 PM   #78
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hell yeaaa man, you guys are on my list for this
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Old 06-20-2012, 10:55 PM   #79
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We picked up our Auto FRS last week and I am already looking at everything it will take to make this car a nationally competitive STX autocross car. I am seriously liking what I'm seeing here and have a few questions for you. Will the exhaust be a direct bolt on for the automatic equipped cars or will there packaging concerns regarding the different trans? If there are concerns I would like to help with the development of the automatic specific components if possible. Let me know if I can help in any way. I will be looking for an SCCA STX legal exhaust system in the next month to two months depending on what is actually available in that time frame.
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Old 06-20-2012, 11:04 PM   #80
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Originally Posted by civicdrivr View Post




That is awesome.


All of these posts regarding scavenging and all sorts of witchcraft is way above my comprehension. With that said, I do prefer a bit more torque down low, even if it sacrifices a bit of power up top. I spend maybe 15% of the time above 6k rpms anyway. Usable power is what Im about.
From my assumption (and it's a big one), my software is doing these calculations based on all of the data I'm providing it with. But honestly, that is why the last step to our process here is to test various designs based on the recommendations of the software. I'll admit I'm not an expert on this stuff, I'm just reading what I can, acting upon what I have read and hoping that having a large number of designs as well as the data we are provided with the software will allow us to intuit a direction to go when we get results from the dyno.

I do know that our original design for the STi header would suck paper down to all three ports when compressed air was run through the fourth port. I can't say the same is entirely true of this header, but a lot of that is based on the catalytic converter altering the behavior of this system. It certainly doesn't blow paper off of the other ports (at all, there's a light suction, but NOTHING like the catless turbo manifold had).

The other way that we could get good data on pulse reversion would be to datalog port pressure data at the port by running a few capillary tubes off of the side of the inlet of the header to an array of high speed pressure transducers or MAP sensors. Problem I have is that I don't really know how to digest that information into tangible results. If we were talking about evaluating a pressure drop in charge piping across the face of an intercooler it's a much simpler evaluation, but when we're talking high rpm pulse data I think it'd be tough to discern the pulses and responses in other primaries from one another. Might be time for me to call our electrical engineer. I've got him busy working on a standalone ECU and absolute encoded ignition system right now, but it couldn't hurt to pick his brain on how to cram data like that into matlab with some kind of counter system so as to track the details as RPM increases. If we had RPM data, spark data and spark advance we could probably crunch the data to segregate the pressure wave from a given cylinder's valve opening (damn this will be hard, there will potentially be two pulses per cylinder based on those stupid dogleg dissimilar length exhaust port halves) and any remove those pulses from our view of the greater scheme of pulse data to leave only anomalies created by reversion.

I'm kindof with Dimmen that a lot of this is to an extent an intellectual circle jerk without taking the next step of closing the loop and looking at actual data to reflect on the theories we are postulating. Not to mention literally not having the appropriate data for a lot of variables that greatly impact the calculations we _could_ make. Nerf grenade...yup...that. Dimmen, do you know what the AVCS range is? See, when I played with the lobe separation angle in my software I mainly just saw the range of primary length targets and secondary length targets shorten or lengthen on reducing or increasing LSA. Unfortunately we are a bit limited on how short we can go with primaries as there is only so much you can do to join two primaries on opposing heads while keeping primary length equal. We can mechanically fiddle around with artificially lengthening the parts, but the shorter we go the more we need to do absolutely insane things like, say, a dry sump. :-).

Dimmen, After talking to Dustin over at Brian Crower, he was thinking the standard LSA on a stock EJ25 N/A camshaft was around 114 deg. I'm curious what numbers you're starting with and how much higher you're assuming the AVCS can take that number.

Ok I absolutely need to stop talking about headers and finish using our Romer arm to map out the front lower control arms, front H brace and a few other chassis bits that we have got in store. Also working on rear lower control arms (mapped already), rear trailing links (mapped), and rear sway bar bushing gussets w/ our patent pending lock lug system. Can't wait to share some of this. Got some Grade 5 Ti sheet today to do some testing with also.

By the way, the 2.5" over-pipe is done and I got our prototype midpipe back from the mandrel bender (much to their chagrin, they hadn't even drawn it up yet - but they did quote it out in stainless and aluminum....can't wait to test that either!). They're also working on getting quotes for 16ga and 18ga 2.5" titanium tubing for us. Should be interesting.

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Old 06-20-2012, 11:10 PM   #81
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Originally Posted by Jedi1 View Post
We picked up our Auto FRS last week and I am already looking at everything it will take to make this car a nationally competitive STX autocross car. I am seriously liking what I'm seeing here and have a few questions for you. Will the exhaust be a direct bolt on for the automatic equipped cars or will there packaging concerns regarding the different trans? If there are concerns I would like to help with the development of the automatic specific components if possible. Let me know if I can help in any way. I will be looking for an SCCA STX legal exhaust system in the next month to two months depending on what is actually available in that time frame.
I sincerely doubt anything will be different between the two, but it's hard to tell. Really depends how big the trans is and the only thing I can think of would be the downpipe bracket that attaches to the rear of the transmission. I really doubt they would have done that. Either way I'd love to work with you to make your car as competitive as possible. We're even considering doing a contingency program for SCCA Solo2 cars equipped with our parts and displaying our logo. If we're going to invest this level of time into the development of a naturally aspirated car (kinda odd for us to be honest, most of our products are for turbocharged cars), I'd like to leverage it to the fullest and migrate some of these ideas onto other competitive Solo2 cars.

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Old 06-20-2012, 11:14 PM   #82
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Some kind of ballpark estimate is better than nothing, but the software that can actually do the job is very, very expensive. It costs more than a low volume performance enthusiast application can support. You would need a GT Power license and a proprietary model for it. Those can take into account the pulse tuning and valve timing effects for scavenging. I'm sure Toyota/Subaru has these models under lock-and-key.
So, funny you mention. We always get pinged by the various CFD vendors out there trying to hawk their products to us. I emailed three of them about two weeks ago asking about this and I think their brains exploded. I don't even think most of the CFD modeling modules for NASTRAN could do this without someone working full time to do exactly what you indicated - a) get REAL data - and lots of it from the engine itself and b) develop a highly complicated proprietary model to work within. It's like writing a CAM post processor for a six axis screw machine. You hire someone for a year to do it, not ask someone to email it to you. :-D

Either way, we're going to have to aim, fire, evaluate, re-aim, fire again.

I'm hoping those of you who like to geek out on this stuff as much as we do will help us on steps one, three and four.

Jason
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Old 06-20-2012, 11:17 PM   #83
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My advice is, do some basic calculations but focus on the prototypes. Start with the designs that are closest to factory in terms of length etc, and move on from there.

I work in the industry and I can tell you that there are entire staffs of engineers who just do simulations on this stuff, and then multi-million dollar engine dyno setups to evaluate them under controlled conditions. A set of Kistler pressure transducers alone costs thousands, and then you have the data acquisition systems. You could outsource a study if you have a budget in the 10s of thousands of dollars range. I could get you in contact with FEV or Roush but that's just so much money... this comes back to my point that low volume performance stuff can't justify really advanced R&D techniques.

Those CFD software salesmen are just salesmen for the most part. If they knew how to design stuff, they wouldn't be in sales.
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Old 06-20-2012, 11:20 PM   #84
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You would need a GT Power license and a proprietary model for it. Those can take into account the pulse tuning and valve timing effects for scavenging. I'm sure Toyota/Subaru has these models under lock-and-key.
It's a true story. I use to work for an OEM and the GT models were 'kept track of'! They are also only a small part of the development process.

Also keep in mind the monetary value attached with the OEM engines in parts development, testing, varification, more design and development, more testing, more analysis and what every little bit you need to have an engine fit and competitive for the market.

Sadly, in the performance world, for the number of parts sold, it isn't worth the cost to be as modeled exact as possible but, as stated earlier, the ballpark is where you need to be (particularly when you consider all the variations of each engine in the end).

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