FRS vs Camaro Handling

[glamcem]

Originally Posted by Ryephile

I threw my hat into the 1LE camp too, despite being a lifelong small car fanatic. After getting the car on-track last weekend at Gingerman, I'm impressed at the cars capabilities. Looking over in the Fastest Track Time thread, a modded 86 on Hoosiers setting the NASA TTD lap record was 4.5 seconds slower than my stock 1LE on stock Goodyears, and that was my first time out with the car. Peak lateral g for my 1LE was 1.5g according to my PDR. The pace delta is undeniable.

I hate to admit it but the stereotype of "muscle cars can't turn" just isn't valid anymore. It doesn't change that I still like the 86 twins. They're still fun cars to drive.

My lap times are also in that list but I forgot to include my improved lap times in there

I didn't know you also had a twin at some point but I knew that screen name looked familiar

It looks like people follow the same path on their track ventures (Miata, twins, s2000, 1Le, Corvette..etc)

[Tcoat]

Originally Posted by Cole

You're the worst

[Deep Six]

These conversations never fail to get entertaining. I don't even believe there is a "definitive definition" of "handling" so this entire thread becomes opinion and perspective. Lap times can be quantified but that doesn't really answer the original question does it. Regarding pace on a road course, I absolutely believe the twins can be modified to be on par with a bone stock SS 1LE without going to the extreme such as the Element Tuning car.


My 2 cents are as follows:

• The SS1LE is an amazing car and the fastest track car you can buy at that price point. Between the E-diff and the PTM programing, relatively inexperienced drivers can make really quick pace and exploit much of it's potential.
• The best bang for the buck right now (IMHO) is the C7 Grand Sport. If you are willing to mod a new car then this chassis is ripe for a 550+whp naturally aspirated LT1
• The upcoming ZL1 and 1LE versions are going to be very interesting as well (not even going to mention the rumored C7 ZR1) Chevy seems to be bringing the A game right now.
• All that being said I still love driving my FRS at the track. Yes the power curve from the Rotrex unit is frustrating for my goals. Perhaps a 90mm pulley or C38 swap may resolve the issue.

[Ryephile]

Originally Posted by Deep Six

These conversations never fail to get entertaining. I don't even believe there is a "definitive definition" of "handling" so this entire thread becomes opinion and perspective. Lap times can be quantified but that doesn't really answer the original question does it. Regarding pace on a road course, I absolutely believe the twins can be modified to be on par with a bone stock SS 1LE without going to the extreme such as the Element Tuning car.


My 2 cents are as follows:

• The SS1LE is an amazing car and the fastest track car you can buy at that price point. Between the E-diff and the PTM programing, relatively inexperienced drivers can make really quick pace and exploit much of it's potential.
• The best bang for the buck right now (IMHO) is the C7 Grand Sport. If you are willing to mod a new car then this chassis is ripe for a 550+whp naturally aspirated LT1
• The upcoming ZL1 and 1LE versions are going to be very interesting as well (not even going to mention the rumored C7 ZR1) Chevy seems to be bringing the A game right now.
• All that being said I still love driving my FRS at the track. Yes the power curve from the Rotrex unit is frustrating for my goals. Perhaps a 90mm pulley or C38 swap may resolve the issue.

Really fantastic reply.

FWIW, Wiki does try to define Automobile handling, but as always James May's article in the Telegraph is much more insightful, though personally I feel he's using a blanket statement to make his headline, because a joystick that's mechanically connected can theoretically be just as well as a steering wheel connected through the same mechanism.

So while we can apply quantifiable metrics to the conversation, as I did in my previous reply, it seems the "feedback resolution" is the most fundamental definition.

Do we have to be more precise with our questions? Surely. The OP used the words "handle better". Did he specifically mean to quantify things like steering feel, shifter feel, and clutch pedal feel? Given he still hasn't responded, we can't know. Yet here's the wrench in the party. One person's Snap-On might be another person's Harbor Freight. One driver uses steering effort force to determine g-loading (e.g. BMW), but another uses bump-steer to ascertain the same thing (e.g. Lotus). It's not as simple as it seems, so we group all discernible traits and preferences we can assess all together and label it "Handling" and call it a day. The rub at the end is, there can be many cars that all "handle" well, but their individual characteristics can also dramatically vary.

This is where I use one of my favorite excuses to keep what's in my garage on a frequent rotation: "So many good cars, so little time."

[~el~jefe~]

I consider handling a car's ability to respond to emergency maneuvers above 50 mph. I have no care for a car that holds turns great on a predefined track. A real race has a lot of danger and also so does high speed city driving. The response of a car, ability for it not to flex back and forth creating bad wiggle side to side momentum, and ability to not understeer plow on braking hard while on a curve is how i define it. also, the ability to hit a pothole at 50mph on a turn and for the tires to not skitter across the road but grab immediately and comfortably. That is actual handling.

[LOLS2K]

Originally Posted by Ryephile

I threw my hat into the 1LE camp too, despite being a lifelong small car fanatic. After getting the car on-track last weekend at Gingerman, I'm impressed at the cars capabilities. Looking over in the Fastest Track Time thread, a modded 86 on Hoosiers setting the NASA TTD lap record was 4.5 seconds slower than my stock 1LE on stock Goodyears, and that was my first time out with the car. Peak lateral g for my 1LE was 1.5g according to my PDR. The pace delta is undeniable.

I hate to admit it but the stereotype of "muscle cars can't turn" just isn't valid anymore. It doesn't change that I still like the 86 twins. They're still fun cars to drive.

Your build threads NEVER disappoint. Do you have a link to your 1LE build?

[Ryephile]

Originally Posted by LOLS2K

Your build threads NEVER disappoint. Do you have a link to your 1LE build?

Thank you for the compliments!

Here's the new but surely evolving Camaro 1LE diary.

...and if you're interested, my long-term turbo Miata track car build thread.

[LOLS2K]

Originally Posted by Ryephile

Thank you for the compliments!

Here's the new but surely evolving Camaro 1LE diary.

...and if you're interested, my long-term turbo Miata track car build thread.

Oh yeah, the Miata build is definitely my favorite so far. I was rather surprised to read that you went the Camaro route after Exige and the hot hatch Abarth and Fiesta. However, the Camaro is such a potent vehicle. Thanks for the link. History tells me that you won't be keeping the Camaro long, so I will enjoy your progress while you still have it.

[Ryephile]

Originally Posted by LOLS2K

Oh yeah, the Miata build is definitely my favorite so far. I was rather surprised to read that you went the Camaro route after Exige and the hot hatch Abarth and Fiesta. However, the Camaro is such a potent vehicle. Thanks for the link. History tells me that you won't be keeping the Camaro long, so I will enjoy your progress while you still have it.

Thank you very much.

If someone came up to me a handful of years ago and said "You'll be driving a Camaro and loving it", I would probably looked at them as if they had 3 heads. It just wouldn't have made any sense in my head.

That is until I drove the regular 2016 Camaro SS before buying the Fiesta ST. The SS was quite good, much better than I expected, but lacked the visceral sizzle the chuckability the FiST has. Neverthless it transformed my opinion of American muscle, that it can be a balanced, if imperfect, experience.

Speaking of perfectly imperfect, I have to say the Exige S is still my favorite drivers car of all time. It's just so damn sexy from every angle, and the "handling" (see, I'm keeping it topical!) is telepathic with every input to every nerve ending in your body. Honestly it's too much for some people. I had a friend drive it, who incidentally now owns an FR-S, and he was so overwhelmed by the sensory overload that he was driving through my neighborhood at 10 under. Everything you feel and sense is just turned up to 11, because it's one more than 10. Selling it was the right decision at the time. Since then I've gotten into motorcycling, I currently have a Triumph Daytona crotch rocket, so I have no issues getting that same level of visceral sensation that the Lotus provided in spades. Of course all that sensory input really makes driving something merely average an absolute bore.

So, that's what makes the 1LE all the more special to me. I can drive to and from the track with the car in Touring mode, and it's incredibly comfortable. When I get there, I can turn on the PDR, switch everything into Track mode, dial in my PTM settings, and crank out laps that are on-pace with what I was doing in Exige S on Hoosiers. The amazing part is on track I'm not missing any information; the steering is precise, the chassis is communicative and intuitive, and the electronics feel like they're reading your mind, not fighting against you. The only thing I'm missing is wear earplugs, because the interior isn't resonating like an aluminum can like the Lotus did. When it's done, put it all back to Touring mode and serenely cruise back home. The 1LE is two cars in one, it's witchcraft. Ok it's not witchcraft, but it's really impressive.

I don't want to sound like a fan boy, because I'm definitely not. My first car was a 1985 Pontiac Sunbird and it was such a piece of junk that it put a 2+ decade long loathing towards all things GM for me. However, the technical side of me has to put credit where it's due; Chevy has honestly turned it around with their performance offerings.

Just don't go drive a Malibu, those are still garbage.

[slipstream8]

Originally Posted by glamcem

My lap times are also in that list but I forgot to include my improved lap times in there

I didn't know you also had a twin at some point but I knew that screen name looked familiar

It looks like people follow the same path on their track ventures (Miata, twins, s2000, 1Le, Corvette..etc)

Originally Posted by Ryephile

Thank you very much.

If someone came up to me a handful of years ago and said "You'll be driving a Camaro and loving it", I would probably looked at them as if they had 3 heads. It just wouldn't have made any sense in my head.

Curse you Camaro guys! I test drove it yesterday, and now I'm having second thoughts about my BRZ PP deposit. That 1LE is sooo good!

My history includes a couple of M3s, and I keep hearing stories of ex-BMW and ex-Porsche guys that are now happily driving the Camaro.

[funwheeldrive]

I don't plan on selling my car anytime soon, but I have been really interested in the Alpha Camaro, and this thread has made me even more interested.


The local dealership has several manual transmission v6s on the lot right now, but none with the 1LE package. Would I still get a good feel for the car if I test drove it, or would there be a huge difference between the 2 models on a 10 minute test drive?

[slipstream8]

Originally Posted by funwheeldrive

I don't plan on selling my car anytime soon, but I have been really interested in the Alpha Camaro, and this thread has made me even more interested.


The local dealership has several manual transmission v6s on the lot right now, but none with the 1LE package. Would I still get a good feel for the car if I test drove it, or would there be a huge difference between the 2 models on a 10 minute test drive?

I think it is worth it to track down a 1LE to drive, especially since you aren't in a rush.

[Summerwolf]

Originally Posted by slipstream8

Curse you Camaro guys! I test drove it yesterday, and now I'm having second thoughts about my BRZ PP deposit. That 1LE is sooo good!

My history includes a couple of M3s, and I keep hearing stories of ex-BMW and ex-Porsche guys that are now happily driving the Camaro.

Yeah, just go camaro.

[Summerwolf]

Originally Posted by funwheeldrive

I don't plan on selling my car anytime soon, but I have been really interested in the Alpha Camaro, and this thread has made me even more interested.


The local dealership has several manual transmission v6s on the lot right now, but none with the 1LE package. Would I still get a good feel for the car if I test drove it, or would there be a huge difference between the 2 models on a 10 minute test drive?

Unfortunately the 1le v6 cars aren't that well equipped. The ediff and magnetic suspension is absent.... and no, the non 1le v6 cars are pretty crappy.

Drive an ss instead!